cannabisnews.com: MSNBC Transcripts: Phil Donahue for July 29, 2002 





MSNBC Transcripts: Phil Donahue for July 29, 2002 
Posted by CN Staff on July 30, 2002 at 16:54:45 PT
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Source: MSNBC 
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think marijuana is illegal and I donít think that it should be done.    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know people who can definitely use it, who are sick or have cancer. I donít know, I think it would be very beneficial. I think the government should be OK with it.    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think itís effective, but I think that many people are going to end up abusing it. 
 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a son thatís on drugs. And I donít like the fact that he started with marijuana.    (END VIDEO CLIP)    DONAHUE: It seems everybody has an opinion about the legalization of marijuana. Weíre talking about this issue tonight. First, with retired Army General Barry McCaffrey. As you know, he was the nationís drug czar from 1996 to 2001. He doesnít think pot should be legal for any reason.    Also joining us is Governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico. You can hear me, Governor?    GOV. GARY JOHNSON ģ, NEW MEXICO: I can hear you, Phil.    DONAHUE: Very good. Well, Governor, Iím in New Jersey with the son my mother wanted to have. I say this very respectfully to you, General. Not only that, you look like all my younger relatives.    Listen to this, Governor. At his retirement from active duty, he was the most highly-decorated and youngest four-star general in the United States Army. This man, United States Military Academy at West Point, 1964. And has received decorations from France, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Peru and Venezuela.    Iím going to tell you honestly, General, it makes it all the more painful. What a wonderful career you have. My hat is off to you, sir. But the drug war is not working. Weíre spending billions. The price of drugs is going up. Weíre-God knows what weíre doing to Colombia and other supplying nations.    We buy helicopters instead of rehab. We arrested, in 2000, almost a million people for marijuana in one year. Eighty-eight percent of these arrests were for possession. I heard you say that we cannot arrest ourselves out of this problem. That seems to be exactly what youíre trying to do.    GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY, RET., FORMER DRUG CZAR: Phil, one of the challenges we have in the drug issue is weíve got to stick with facts. Now, here are the facts. 1979, 14 percent of the country were (UNINTELLIGIBLE) drug users. Itís down to 6 percent today.    The use of drugs by adolescents is the lowest in eight years. The treatment programs have never been more robust. The international cooperation is working fine. So a lot of what youíre saying, factually, just doesnít match up. And most people in this country in jail are simply not there for simple possession of drugs.    DONAHUE: Most of them are not there for violent offenses. And we have more than two million people in jail. I mean, that alone...    MCCAFFREY: The facts of the matter are, if youíre behind bars in a federal prison right now for possession of marijuana, you had more than 200 kilograms on you when we arrested you. Some of these assertions are just clever, but not true.    What is true is that we are extremely concerned that marijuana and other drugs, particularly alcohol, when used in excess by younger people, particularly from the sixth grade through 12th grade, produce a higher proportion of the population that are chronic abusers. Thatís actually what we care about.    DONAHUE: Yes. Governor, youíre listening in on this. May we have your thoughts, please?    JOHNSON: Phil, I think you kind of hit it on the head. First off, let me say, as somebody who has smoked marijuana and doesnít smoke it anymore, marijuana is a handicap. Donít smoke marijuana.    I would also like to say, not having had a drink in 15 years, to quit drinking alcohol. Itís a terrible handicap. And until you quit, you realize what a handicap it is.    But that said, should we continue to make it criminal for the use of marijuana? And the statistics you cite are correct. About 800,000 people a year now are being arrested for marijuana. About half-about 90 percent of those arrests are for possession only. So clearly, we cannot continue to arrest and incarcerate this country over the use of marijuana. It just doesnít work.    And to talk about marijuana use being any sort of gateway drug is just not the case at all. Statistically, one out of 105 marijuana users goes on to use cocaine on a regular basis. And again, we cannot continue to arrest and incarcerate over a bad choice.    And when I say legalize marijuana, I advocate the legalization of marijuana. When I say legalize marijuana, itís never going to be legal for kids to do marijuana, to sell to kids. Itís never going to be legal to smoke pot and get behind the wheel of a car and drive a car impaired.    But that ought to be our concentration is, hey, youíre going to smoke pot, do harm to somebody else, be in a position to do harm. Thatís when you belong behind bars.    DONAHUE: Letís say again, here, Governor, you will always be able to pass Breathalyzer. If they ask to you pee in a bottle, you are ready. Youíre a triathlon athlete. I thank you for-I think itís courageous what youíre doing.    I think, too, if kids smoke pot in high school, General, that is not a good thing. I think it makes you stupid. You canít remember anything. A lot of kids are stoned all day. They lose their adolescence. They get to be 32 going on 17. Donít smoke pot!    But we donít need the cops and theyíre knocking the doors down, and the $82 billion...    MCCAFFREY: Oh, Phil, come on. Letís have a discussion. The facts of the matter are, I spent this afternoon with Dr. Mitch Rosenthal of the Phoenix House, the biggest nonprofit drug treatment chain in the country. Terrific people.    When you ask about children and drug treatment in America, 50 percent of them are there because the primary drug of abuse is marijuana. We actually think marijuana is a dangerous drug with limited benefits. I think having it be illegal is an extremely sound policy choice.    There is a good argument that you clearly donít want people locked up for possession of two joints. I would argue, thatís actually not the case in America. I think weíve got a very clever campaign right now by people, to normalize and lower the rejection rate of marijuana. We donít agree with it.    DONAHUE: You speak about medical use?    MCCAFFREY: No, Iím talking about general use. Now, medical marijuana is a completely different issue.    DONAHUE: I want to give you a chance to make your case about that. Because we do have other people who want to say that it helps, it shouldnít be illegal. And weíll find out...    MCCAFFREY: But remember, we have to keep the facts on the table.    DONAHUE: OK, Iím trying. And thatís why youíre here.    MCCAFFREY: And the facts come from the National Institute of Drug Abuse and Mitch Rosenthal, not from Governor Johnson.    DONAHUE: Well, but he certainly cannot be disrespected.    MCCAFFREY: He can have a viewpoint. But he shouldnít articulate the statistics on the drug problem. Letís get that from scientists.    DONAHUE: And weíll give him a chance to make his case when we come back in just a moment.    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)    (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)    BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When I was in England, I experimented with marijuana a time or two and I didnít like it. And didnít inhale and never tried it again.    (END VIDEO CLIP)    DONAHUE: That was Bill Clinton, as you know, during the 1992 presidential campaign, admitting that he tried marijuana.    Governor, the general has some major misgivings about the figures being thrown around here. Among other things, you want-youíre saying that nobody is in jail because a cop found a roach in the ashtray of the car.    MCCAFFREY: No, I didnít say that. What Iím saying is that the overwhelming majority of people behind bars in America, more than two million, have a substance abuse or alcohol problem. And their primary cause of arrest tends to be burglary, breaking and entering, robbery, waste, fraud and abuse.    And the secondary charges tend to be drug-related. Many of them have drug problems. And they frequently will plea-bargain down to a marijuana possession instead of a weapon or a forced entry. I think that very few people in America are put behind bars when chronically addicted to drugs, for simple possession. I think thatís a false argument.    I think the number of arrests weíre quoting on marijuana are certainly...    DONAHUE: Four-point-one million marijuana arrests during the Clinton years.    MCCAFFREY: But again, you go to the number of people that drive drunk. Do we want to stop arresting people for driving drunk because nine out of 10 arenít arrested when they do it? We think that having strong social disapproval of marijuana is helpful.    DONAHUE: I do, too. Governor?    JOHNSON: Letís have strong social disapproval for marijuana. Letís decriminalize marijuana. Letís say that itís bad to do. But weíre criminalizing a behavior here that arguably, when somebody doesnít do any harm to anyone, again, other than themselves, is criminal and can end you up in jail.    Look, the government maintains that there are about 13 million users of drugs on a fairly regular basis. I just find this incredible to believe, given that weíre arresting 1.6 million people a year on drug-related crime. Thatís one out of seven.    I have the sense that when the government says weíre down to like a million users of drugs, weíre going to be arresting 18 million people a year. And I donít want to be flippant here. But Iím going to live to see 80 million Americans arrested in this country. That is not to condone marijuana use. But I have to tell you, the punishment is way out of context to the act. Way out.    (CROSSTALK)    JOHNSON: There would be overall less substance abuse if you were to legalize marijuana. And Iím speaking now from experience. Alcohol is the real killer out there. And everybody talks like, gee, weíre going to let another genie out of the bottle.    DONAHUE: Gentlemen, the computer is looking me square in the eye.    You get to speak and so does the general, in a moment.    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)    DONAHUE: Everybody agrees nothing scares a parent faster than to smell it or learn that a child is using marijuana. Weíre talking about the move to legalize pot with the Republican Governor of New Mexico Gary Johnson, who is for - who thinks the drug war isnít working and should have his own time to tell us what he is for. Heís foursquare against young people using drugs and he wants you to know that and heís entitled to at least be understood on that issue.    Governor Barry McCaffrey is here, the former drug czar. You told me that it was really one of the most rewarding times of your life professionally.    MCCAFFREY: Sure. You know I was honored to be part of it. We had huge increases in drug prevention funding, drug treatment programs. Governor Johnson and I have certainly disagreed before. I have great respect for him as a person, but weíre also listening to a guy that called for the legalization of heroin. New Mexico has the highest death rate of heroin in the country. I personally find his views on this...    JOHNSON: I got to cut in here right now.    (CROSSTALK)    JOHNSON: Talk about harm reduction strategies for heroin and we have cut down the usage of debt. Weíve cut down deaths from heroin from overdose in the State of New Mexico and nobody seems to really care about that and thatís what weíve done. I never advocated the legalization of heroin. What Iíve talked about is harm reduction strategies on all these other drugs and that is basically to look at this problem as a health problem rather than a criminal justice problem and these are things I get thrown at me all the time.    MCCAFFREY: You know I think Governor Ventura and Governor Johnson represent an irresponsible viewpoint that is largely denied by the law enforcement and treatment professionals in their states, and I think their parties. I just disagree with what he...    DONAHUE: General. General I have to say you are ascribing the word irresponsible; youíre using the word irresponsible to describe a stance that has been assumed by former Secretary of State George Schultz.    MCCAFFREY: By the way, I talked about heroin use.    DONAHUE: By Milton Friedman (ph).    MCCAFFREY: I talked about heroin use and 48,000 dead a year from drugs in America so.    DONAHUE: The governor is denying that. I wish it were possible because I think youíre both civil people here.    MCCAFFREY: Sure.    DONAHUE: Responsible people. I know that the governor is bone dry, no alcohol, no nothing, and I think you know heís saying like so many others are saying that weíre looking a little bit hysterical here, and that we - you know 20, 30 years ago you could smoke on an elevator. You could smoke a cigarette. There were ashtrays on elevators. Itís amazing what we can do to change public opinion. Why canít we do this with something like pot and young people?    MCCAFFREY: Well most of us, meaning pediatricians, teachers, coaches, religious leaders, think it would be an irresponsible policy choice. We donít agree. We simply donít want adolescents using drugs. We donít want the transportation industry using them. We donít agree.    DONAHUE: We donít want them drinking Bud Light either but they do and nobody seems to be hysterical about that.    MCCAFFREY: We certainly havenít legalized adolescents drinking beer either. We are firmly against it. Phil, no one will accuse you of being neutral on the position, Iíll tell you that.    DONAHUE: No, thatís true and itís not a secret. Governor, you wanted to say?    JOHNSON: Well, I just think itís very hypocritical that we havenít criminalized tobacco use that we havenít criminalized alcohol use, but gee we did try that before. You know America is founded on freedom and with that goes personal accountability and responsibility and, again, if you smoke marijuana, do harm to anybody else, put yourself in a position to do harm to somebody else just like alcohol, that ought to be the concentration. We ought to put you behind bars.    Look, from where I sit when half of what weíre spending on law enforcement, half of what weíre spending on the courts, and half of what weíre spending on the prisons is drug related. This is crazy, and when we talk about harm reduction strategies, getting back to heroin, you know what?    Zurich, Switzerland, they have a free heroin program. Itís not the end all, but itís looking at the problem as a health problem rather than a criminal justice problem. The idea of free heroin, you go to a doctor. You get a prescription.    The government provides the heroin. No more overdose, clean needles, ingestion at a clinic, no more having to rob and steal to get the product. No more HIV, no more Hepatitis C. Death, disease and crime has plummeted in Zurich and that comes from the chief of police from Zurich.    MCCAFFREY: Oh, governor, come on.    JOHNSON: And now Germany is engaged in the same heroin maintenance problem, not the end all, but a basic look at the problem as a health problem rather than a criminal justice problem.    DONAHUE: Can I try for Julian here. Julian are you there?    JULIAN: I am.    DONAHUE: You wanted to say briefly.    JULIAN: I did. You know General McCaffrey used the word ďdangerousĒ to describe marijuana and it seems to me that marijuana, as opposed to alcohol, cause no violence. We know that alcohol causes thousands of deaths in this country both on the road and through disease. You never hear of a stoned person starting a fight or doing harm to themselves or anyone else.    DONAHUE: Well.    JULIAN: So, Iím curious how does the general support his characterization?    MCCAFFREY: Well, first of all I think that alcohol is an enormously harmful drug that causes 150,000 dead a year, possibly as much as $150 million of damage. It is clearly part of the poly drug abuse problem in America. I think we ought to be glad that the use rates have gone down, but we ought to be equally glad that the adolescent population, cigarettes and alcohol use is the lowest in 15 years.    DONAHUE: Yes.    MCCAFFREY: We ought to be glad that the illegal drug use rates is the lowest in eight years, and we ought to be concerned about the fact that the majority of the people behind bars, in fact, have a poly drug abuse problem. I donít agree that marijuana is not a dangerous drug and neither does the National Institute of Drug Abuse, probably more importantly than what I think.    DONAHUE: Yes. Youíre not suggesting - did you suggest that you thought prohibition worked?    MCCAFFREY: Well, I didnít talk about it. Governor Johnson did.    DONAHUE: What you would feel about it?    MCCAFFREY: What I would tell you categorically is that no oneís going to get tricked into trying to acquaint marijuana and prohibition, although there is no question that the impact of alcohol abuse on America was lower during prohibition than at any other time in our history. It went down and we implemented it. It went back up and we took it off but socially it didnít fit with America.    DONAHUE: And the price of the product went up and turf wars broke out.    MCCAFFREY: Donít talk about the price of the product. There is ó the supply of every drug in America grossly exceeds the demand. Thatís the most nonsensical figure imaginable. The supply of heroin in the world is over 500 metric tons. The U.S. is using about 13 metric tons.    DONAHUE: Yes.    MCCAFFREY: The price is not the determinant of human behavior. The problem with heroin is it changes the neurochemistry of the brain.    DONAHUE: Yes, not unlike alcohol. Governor, you wanted to say?    JOHNSON: Again, this is not about condoning the use of drugs at all.    Itís just about making sense. Itís about getting away from prohibition. Not for a minute would I condone the use of any drugs. I donít think anybody here is condoning the use of drugs. Itís just that we can not arrest and incarcerate our kids. Fifty-four percent of the graduating class of the year 2000 did illegal drugs. It seems to me that we ought to be putting our money - putting our resources into education. Donít do drugs. Donít use alcohol. Donít use tobacco. That ought to be our focus.    MCCAFFREY: Eighty percent of them had drunk driving but that doesnít mean you legalize drunk driving.    JOHNSON: Our focus ought to be putting resources into treatment for individuals that want treatment. Our focus ought to be to reduce death, disease, and crime. I just maintain that 90 percent of the drug problem is prohibition related, not use related, and that is in no way to discount the problems with use.    DONAHUE: I get you.    JOHNSON: But that ought to be our focus.    DONAHUE: I let you both in.    MCCAFFREY: By the way, I might add Governor Johnson vetoed his drug treatment programs until we put a blow torch on him in the last two years.    DONAHUE: Iíll give you a chance to respond to that, Governor, and weíll also talk with a ranking conservative in the Reagan administration who goes against the grain and supports the legalization of marijuana. Know who that is, Lyn Nofziger, no kidding, back in a moment.    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)    DONAHUE: Well, weíre back with General McCaffrey, who is out-manned as he reminds me.    MCCAFFREY: No, I said there was an unbalanced viewpoint.    DONAHUE: Unbalanced, sorry.    MCCAFFREY: I donít think Iím out-manned at all.    DONAHUE: No, you can handle it, Iím sure. Well, itís not an intent at all to overwhelm you, which I agree, I donít think would be possible, and I thought that I made the case that you are an honorable man and that honorable men have differed on this subject.    MCCAFFREY: The only thing I would argue is the viewpoints of the millions of Americans in recovery out there and Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous arenít being represented when we imply that marijuana isnít a dangerous drug. I got to treatment centers all over this country. The people who are clinging to sobriety a day at a time donít want to see marijuana normalized. Theyíre against it.    DONAHUE: OK. Nobody is saying that marijuana is something we want to hand out.    MCCAFFREY: Right.    DONAHUE: Nobody. We donít want to hand out alcohol.    MCCAFFREY: Right, we want to have high social disapproval.    DONAHUE: The question is what do we do about it and are we corrupting and is it fair to the cops? Theyíre knocking doors down. Theyíre risking their life.    MCCAFFREY: Well, ask Gary Johnsonís guy who resigned on him when he called for the legalization of heroin and marijuana. The guy quit. We donít agree with his position.    DONAHUE: Governor.    JOHNSON: And ask my new appointee who has been the federal prosecutor, who happens to agree with me down the road on all of this, that what weíre doing is a failure. General, you talked earlier about the fact that I vetoed some money for treatment.    MCCAFFREY: I sure wish you made these arguments when you were running for office instead of lately.    DONAHUE: The suggestion is if you made these arguments when you were running, you wouldnít be elected, Governor.    MCCAFFREY: You wouldnít be the governor. We wouldnít agree with you.    JOHNSON: Look, hereís - look, the general says I vetoed money for treatment. You know, New Mexico is one of five states in the United States that is not in deficit spending and thatís because I vetoed over 750 bills because, you know what? I really do a damn good job of managing the checkbook.    So I vetoed about a billion dollars worth of spending here in New Mexico and again, it gets back to the fact that legislators consistently over appropriate for the money that we have. So, yes, I think Iím doing a good job as governor.    (CROSSTALK)    JOHNSON: And I got to talk too about the fact that the government, when it comes - letís get back to marijuana use. The government assumes two things when it comes to marijuana use. Number one is you need to go to jail or; number 2, you belong in treatment and you know what? That just isnít the case. Most people that smoke marijuana, smoke marijuana like other people have cocktails in the evenings. Itís not a good choice. I donít suggest it. I think itís an incredible handicap, but do you belong in prison? Are you criminal for that choice? No.    DONAHUE: Governor, let me get Lyn now. Are you there Mr. Nofziger, sir?    LYN NOFZIGER, FMR. REAGAN PRESS SECY.: Yes, Iím here.    DONAHUE: Lyn, we regret to re-inform some folks out there that you lost your daughter in 1994 to cancer, and she was a medical marijuana user. Now, that makes your foursquare in favor of medical marijuana use, correct?    NOFZIGER: Oh, absolutely. Not only that, Iíve learned a lot since.    DONAHUE: But you also admire General McCaffrey. You know the banner that heís carrying, so tell me your feelings here.    MCCAFFREY: By the way, I havenít told you what I thought about medical marijuana. Weíre talking about marijuana legalization. If it comes to the medical use of cannabinoids for the control of pain or other medical indications, all of us are foursquare for NIDA and FDA making these drugs available if itís controlled clinical studies.    DONAHUE: Mr. Nofziger, sir.    NOFZIGER: Yes. Well, I donít know what he means by controlled clinical studies. I do know that if thereís enough evidence out there that marijuana helps when other medicines do not, such as Marinol, thereís enough evidence out there that it not only helps people with chemotherapy who have nausea and diarrhea and loss of appetite, it also helps people who have glaucoma. It helps people with multiple sclerosis.    MCCAFFREY: If I may differ, sir, it doesnít help with glaucoma. The Institute of Medicine study...    NOFZIGER: May I tell you that you havenít talked to people who need this help and I have.    MCCAFFREY: Well, I spent a million dollars on a study out of the Institute of Medicine...    NOFZIGER: I donít care what you spent. Government is good at spending money, but government is not looking at the people that it does help and the fact is, it has kept people with glaucoma from going blind, and you can find people who will tell you that.    MCCAFFREY: They just donít happen to be National Institute of Drug Abuse of the FDA.    NOFZIGER: I donít care about that because government can twist things around any way it wants to make its point and my point is that medical marijuana is usable to help people with pain, to help people with nausea, to help people with the wasting symptoms of AIDS, to help people with glaucoma, and there are people out there who will testify that it helps them.    DONAHUE: Yes, and you know from personal experience; your daughterís pain, nausea, diarrhea, all the accompanying symptoms to the serious illness that was to consume her life, relieved those symptoms.    NOFZIGER: Yes. You know we donít claim, I donít think anybody claims that marijuana is a cure but itís a palliative and what it did for her is it got rid of the nausea. It helped with the diarrhea.    DONAHUE: Right.    NOFZIGER: It restored her appetite and it gave her some comfort during that period of her life when she was undergoing this.    DONAHUE: And your feelings about that, General?    MCCAFFREY: You know, the bottom line is Iíve spent probably three years of my life in hospitals. Iíve had 17 surgeries. I am all for any reputable therapeutic intervention to control pain. We donít do it very well. The American medical establishment needs better training.    We do have terrific drugs nowadays, but at the end of the day if itís medical marijuana weíre talking about, disassociating 32 cannabinoids, and using them in controlled doses for medical reasons, how about it. Weíll make the science do it not a bunch of potheads in California.    NOFZIGER: You know thatís an nice, easy insult, but a lot of those potheads in California in fact have been taking marijuana because they have one affliction or another and it has helped them.    MCCAFFREY: Well, you got to hear what I said now, Mr. Nofziger. I actually believe that if itís medical intervention weíre talking about, then have the FDA and the NIH do disassociated studies, put out the cannabinoids in pill or rapid onset delivery vehicle, weíre all for it.    NOFZIGER: Well, general, are you aware of the fact that at one time the federal government was giving marijuana cigarettes to 17 people and now itís down to seven, but some of those people had glaucoma and it was helping them with glaucoma?    MCCAFFREY: Yes. Actually, the institute - either you pick one of the few indications, by the way, for which itís probably not helpful.    DONAHUE: Thirty seconds, General.    MCCAFFREY: But we are fully convinced that NIDA should fund any legitimate investigation of either smoke marijuana in the short term or, more importantly, pure cannabinoid research in the long term. Weíre all for it as long as itís science and medicine weíre talking about.    DONAHUE: Yes. Governor, youíre still there?    JOHNSON: Yes, Iím still here.    DONAHUE: OK, I want to give you a chance. Iím afraid if I throw you the pass now, youíre not going to have time to catch it. Up next, weíll find out whatís happening in the battle to legalize some of those potheads from California when we come back.    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)    (WEATHER REPORT)    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)    DONAHUE: Weíre talking about the issue of legalizing marijuana. In San Francisco, city supervisor Mark Leno has put a proposal on the ballot in November to gauge interest in government grown and distributed marijuana.    And in Las Vegas, Billy Rogers of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), a policy project to spearhead a ballot initiative to legalize possession of up to three ounces of pot in Nevada. Welcome gentlemen. Letís go with you, Supervisor Leno.    MARK LENO, SAN FRANCISCO SUPERVISOR: Hello, Phil.    DONAHUE: Youíre going to have - weíre going to grow pot on the - the cityís going to grow the pot, do I understand you?    LENO: First of all, Iíve been following your debate here and for the general to say he wants to put backs on the table, to use inflammatory words like ďpotheadsĒ in California really confuses me. This is a medical issue, a serious medical issue.    Iím concerned about the thousands and thousands of San Franciscans, Californians, and Americans who depend upon a safe and reliable access to their medicines. There is no good reason in the world why the federal government should stand between ill and vulnerable citizens and the medicines they depend upon.    You know the Institute of Medicine wrote in a report, commissioned by the White House in 1999, that said there is clear evidence that medical marijuana does relieve chronic pain, nausea, weight loss, from all the different illnesses that have already been reported by Lyn.    DONAHUE: Yes. Right.    LENO: So what Iíve done is I put a measure forward, which will be on our November ballot, which will ask San Franciscans if the city should explore the possibility of creating a program whereby we would grow and distribute...    DONAHUE: All right.    LENO: ...to our medical patients.    DONAHUE: All right, the general has my guilt wheel turning here. It is quite true the man is alone here on this program. Go ahead, sir.    MCCAFFREY: Well, I just pointed out it seems to me this is the most biased presentation of the issue Iíve run into. They city councilman whom I have great respect for looks like a better version of Tom Cruise, a great icon to push forward for a city growing pot? Come on. You got to do this with a straight face. I personally think...    LENO: It should be done by the state and the federal government should stay out.    MCCAFFREY: What many of us think is it ought to be science and medicine and the FDA and the NIH define whatís a therapeutic compound and what isnít.    LENO: Sir. Sir.    MCCAFFREY: By the way, just before I came on this program, I reread the Institute of Medicine study that I commissioned and it doesnít say what you just said. It says there are some subpopulations for which there may be a contributory benefit of some aspects of cannabinoids.    LENO: I do need to point out, though, for all of your years in your position, you talk now about yes, we should go ahead with these studies. It is pure politics and that is the simple truth.    DONAHUE: Yes.    LENO: That have prevented the kind of research that we should have done decades and decades ago.    DONAHUE: Mark, let me get Billy Rogers in before the program is over. Nevada, three ounces and you walk, no arrest. Do I understand your proposition?    BILLY ROGERS, NEVADANS FOR RESP. LAW ENF.: Absolutely. Most people in Nevada donít think we ought to be wasting tax dollars and police resources on arresting people for small amounts of marijuana. This initiative would protect responsible people, but it also punishes those who are irresponsible.    Adults would be allowed to possess three ounces of marijuana but there are strict safeguards. Anyone who sells marijuana to minors under this initiative would go to prison. Driving dangerously under the influence of marijuana, people who did that would get arrested and would face possible imprisonment. There are safeguards in this to ensure that the general public is not jeopardized, but weíre also protecting responsible people.    DONAHUE: All right.    LENO: Phil, I do want to point out that a Pugh (ph) Poll in 2001 revealed that 73 percent of Americans polled support the medical use of marijuana.    DONAHUE: All right.    LENO: Seventy-three percent. Thatís how out of step our federal government is. Nine states in this nation have already, by ballot initiative, voted to approve medical use of (UNINTELLIGIBLE).    DONAHUE: Yes, they have.    MCCAFFREY: Oh come on, we have...    DONAHUE: General, youíre on.    MCCAFFREY: Thirty-six states passed peach pits for cancer. We had thalidomide approved in a lot of states. We donít have a nation where our medicine is decided by city plebiscites nor by...    LENO: Not city, but state yes. The state has a sovereign interest in the health and well-being of its citizens.    MCCAFFREY: Look, the bottom line to medical marijuana is youíre actually talking about medicines. Youíre talking about controlled delivery of a pure substance for a medical indication where thereís a clinical trial that says it helps, letís do it.    LENO: Sir, do you support the measure thatís before the U.S. Congress right now?    MCCAFFREY: But if itís smoking pot for prostate cancer, you basically have to be able to say this with a straight face (UNINTELLIGIBLE).    (CROSSTALK)    DONAHUE: With only seconds left, you wanted to say what, Mark?    LENO: I want to know if the general supports the measure pending in Congress right now, which would reclassify from Schedule I to Schedule II, medical cannabis, which it should be with morphine and other drugs that should be prescribed for medical use and additionally...    MCCAFFREY: Weíre not talking about that.    LENO: Yes, you are.    MCCAFFREY: Now wait a second.    DONAHUE: Right, thirty seconds.    MCCAFFREY: Schedule I has to do with should smoked marijuana, 4,000 compounds and you set it on fire, 400 when itís sitting there...    LENO: Medical cannabis is not Schedule II right now. It should be.    MCCAFFREY: Synthetic THC is already in pharmacies.    LENO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).    MCCAFFREY: Theyíre already there. Itís an approved drug and more...    LENO: But also...    MCCAFFREY: Let me answer it.    LENO: Yes.    MCCAFFREY: More can come as long as itís science and medicine.    DONAHUE: Right. I regret that the clock obliges us now to interrupt. We have been watching a debate on marijuana. I ask you to stay tuned now for ďHARDBALLĒ with Mike Barnicle whoís filling in for Chris Matthews this week. Meantime, remember all these folks the next time you get in this argument.    END    THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.Transcription Copyright 2002 FDCH-eMedia (Federal Document Clearing House, Inc. - eMediaMillWorks, Inc.)Complete Transcripts: http://www.msnbc.com/news/787845.aspGuest: John Unger, Gary Johnson, Barry McCaffrey, Lyn Nofziger, Mark Leno, Billy RogersSource: MSNBC (US Web)Published: July 29, 2002Copyright: 2002 MSNBCContact: letters msnbc.comWebsite: http://msnbc.com/news/DL: http://www.msnbc.com/news/donahue_front.aspRelated Articles & Web Sites:NRLE: http://www.nrle.org/Marijuana Policy Project: http://www.mpp.org/Audio Link: http://highwire.stanford.edu/~straffin/dp/ Donahue on Marijuana: http://www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse1446.ramJohnson Talks Drugs on TV: http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread13480.shtmlNevada Becomes Marijuana Battle Ground: http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread13518.shtmlSan Francisco Puts Growing Marijuana on Ballot: http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread13517.shtmlMSNBC Transcripts: Phil Donahue - July 18, 2002: http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread13481.shtml
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Comment #19 posted by Ethan Russo MD on July 31, 2002 at 11:29:17 PT:
Ageism
I used to be a Young Turk, but now I'm a Middle-Aged Turk! 
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Comment #18 posted by kaptinemo on July 31, 2002 at 11:15:04 PT:
I did, FoM :)
...and I left my 'tuppence' there as well.Doc, I was not excusing the antis for being such arsenlochen; I agree, they have no excuse. They aren't total dunces. Many of them know that history favors us. Some saw the writing on the wall long ago when they first tried to ignore us. They see what's happening in Europe and know that their two main 'vassals' (the UK and Canada) in their DrugWar have opted out. Now they slander us. More proof of our success when the enemy ceases to loftily, disdainfully ignore us and recognize us for the 'threat' we are. This whole thing is playing out like a revolution in a 'banana republic'. The 'Young Turks' (us) are facing down the 'Sick Turks' (antis) who are holding on to their power monopoly as best they can. But it's slipping.Antis have been largely successful - with the help of some craven media types by not challenging on sight their BS - to distract the public with 'real life' shows like COPS. Such shows glorify police tactics that when dissected under the light of the Constitution are found...unConstitutional. But so long as the antis could keep Americans distracted from the facts of the DrugWar by glossing over the things that are truly disturbing, they were very happy with their own private cloud-cuckooland endeavor.It's proved so...lucrative...don't you know?But, as the old saying goes, "Reality bites." And the Donahue and Stossel programs were twin doses of reality that have bit hard into anti backsides. They cannot claim blissful ignorance of the calamitous effects the DrugWar has had upon national life and the body politic anymore. The truth about what their high-minded (no pun intended, not for that crowd) goals having corrupted society can no longer be ignored. Weiner's attempt at damage control will be seen by those who read his words as having an underlying tone of panic. They know that their de facto control of the media is slipping. That many in the media that used to be allies are turning their coats and joining us. That from now on, when an anti says something patently outrageous, more people will question them, having seen that both Donahue and Stossel are still standing despite antis attempting at burning them at the stake for uttering heresies.Lose a debate in the public's eyes, in a public forum, on a level playing field, and it's all over but the shouting. Gerald Ford learned that lesson when he debated Carter and found out what one patently nonsensical statement ("Eastern Europe has never been dominated by the Soviet Union, and never would be under a Ford Administration!") can do to you.Now it's the antisí turn. Barry and Asa have already jammed their feet so far down their throats that they will soon disappear, like a collapsed star, altogether. Any more such public debates against people who know what they are talking about, and the antis will lose the public arena totally. And then they are finished.
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Comment #17 posted by FoM on July 31, 2002 at 08:37:55 PT
kaptinemo
I'm glad I was able to get them posted. Check out Bob Weiner blasting Stossel's program!Bob Weiner Blasts John Stossel ABC 20-20 Report
http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/thread13587.shtml
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Comment #16 posted by Ethan Russo MD on July 31, 2002 at 08:11:44 PT:
No Excuse
As much as the previous explanation of political short-sightedness as analogous to Aspberger's syndrome is interesting, it should, in no way, be offered as an excuse for official ignorance, propaganda or lies, or as a defense for the official crimes against humanity in the War on Drugs.
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Comment #15 posted by kaptinemo on July 31, 2002 at 07:50:22 PT:
JT, here's why they are the way they are
I came across this on a wholly different research tack, and thought it gave a stellar view of why antis behave the way they do...and repeat the same drivel so often:THE AUTISTIC CONFEDERACY by Sam Smith
http://prorev.com/autistic.htm"Asperger's Syndrome, also known as Asperger's Disorder or Autistic Psychopathy, is a Pervasive Developmental Disorder characterized by severe and sustained impairment in social interaction, development of restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, and activities. These characteristics result in clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. In contrast to Autistic disorder (Autism), there are no clinically significant delays in language or cognition or self help skills or in adaptive behavior, other than social interaction. Prevalence is limited but it appears to be more common in males . . . Adults with Asperger's have trouble with empathy and modulation of social interaction - the disorder follows a continuous course and is usually lifelong . . . ""There is a general impression that Asperger's syndrome carries with it superior intelligence and a tendency to become very interested in and preoccupied with a particular subject. Often this preoccupation leads to a specific career at which the adult is very successful . . . "Key to the Asperger style of politics and media is the constant repetition of thought patterns and the imperviousness of the practitioners' thinking to outside fact or argument. The technical name for this is perseveration which has been defined as "the persistent repetition of a response after cessation of the causative stimuli; for example, the repetition of a correct answer to one question as the answer to succeeding questions," an almost perfect description of what regularly occurs on your average Sunday talk show. A less technical but even more generally apt definition is "continuation of something usually to an exceptional degree or beyond a desired point." (Emphasis mine -k.)In short, most antis are mentally ill. We all guessed that, but this tends to lend credence to the idea that this really is a disease they are suffering from. If they weren't so damn dangerous, I'd pity them.
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Comment #14 posted by John Tyler on July 31, 2002 at 07:11:02 PT
Dogmatic
I think Barry, Asa and the rest of their ilk are so absorbed with their own strident, brittle dogmatism that they cannot conceive of a different point of view. They are fearful of having a debate rekindled. They get blasted when they trot out their same old lame arguments.  
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Comment #13 posted by kaptinemo on July 31, 2002 at 06:58:24 PT:
FoM, many thanks for the transcript.
Especially as I am out of medication and watching and listening to McCaffrey on the POT-TV stream is enough to cause projectile vomiting.I knew Nofziger would 'come out swinging', but I never expected this:MCCAFFREY: By the way, I havenít told you what I thought about medical marijuana. Weíre talking about marijuana legalization. If it comes to the medical use of cannabinoids for the control of pain or other medical indications, all of us are foursquare for NIDA and FDA making these drugs available if itís controlled clinical studies...NOFZIGER: Yes. Well, I donít know what he means by controlled clinical studies. I do know that if thereís enough evidence out there that marijuana helps when other medicines do not, such as Marinol, thereís enough evidence out there that it not only helps people with chemotherapy who have nausea and diarrhea and loss of appetite, it also helps people who have glaucoma. It helps people with multiple sclerosis. MCCAFFREY: If I may differ, sir, it doesnít help with glaucoma. The Institute of Medicine study...NOFZIGER: May I tell you that you havenít talked to people who need this help and I have.MCCAFFREY: Well, I spent a million dollars on a study out of the Institute of Medicine...NOFZIGER: I donít care what you spent. Government is good at spending money, but government is not looking at the people that it does help and the fact is, it has kept people with glaucoma from going blind, and you can find people who will tell you that.This is what we need: scrappy streetfighters that will throw the anti lies back in their teeth. This along with the Stossel program of last night have been the most positive news that we have had in a long time. But there's one thing that slipped by, one very important thing, which could have hung Barry out to dry from the moment he said it:MCCAFFREY: What I would tell you categorically is that no oneís going to get tricked into trying to acquaint marijuana and prohibition, although there is no question that the impact of alcohol abuse on America was lower during prohibition than at any other time in our history. It went down and we implemented it. It went back up and we took it off but socially it didnít fit with America.Right there, he's rammed his foot so far down his throat his nose is uncomfortably close to his anus. If someone on our side had skewered him right there and explained that prohibition is exactly what the anti-cannabis laws are all about, he'd been left with nothing to stand on. I've mentioned this before: antis have been so used to winning by default (through overwhelming influence in the government and the media) rather than competition in the 'market of ideas' that they have forgotten how to effectively debate. McCaffrey's reactions illustrate this perfectly. He thinks that, just like before, for as long as he's been on this shtick, that all he has to do is make speeches and not field comments, because he's (Echo chamber) THE GOVERNMENT EXPERT and all should cringe and scrape when he makes his pronouncements. He's never actually had to defend his positions.
Whereas we, having been forced for so long to rely on our meager resources, have been forced to become quite good at debate. And this is the result.They may have the guns...but they have 'feet of clay'. Time to start pulverizing them..
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Comment #12 posted by el_toonces on July 31, 2002 at 06:39:54 PT:
The Nofzinger effect.....
I got the impression Lynn Nofzinger's presence effectively precluded the administration from making the unwise move of putting someone -- anyone -- from the current administration on this show. Apparently, the could only find prohibitionists like the General, who at least officially are retired control freaks.And I like the think of the Nevada initiative, with it's iffy poll support right now, as more evidence our opponents are on the defensive. It's almost like in their retreat, we can throw political hand grenades like in Nevada -- hell, it might pass, but it will definitely cause confusion and chaos like a grenade without a target exploding near the troops:)It's nice to have momentum.
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Comment #11 posted by freedom fighter on July 30, 2002 at 23:40:24 PT
After reading the entire transcript
Oh man,This gentleman, Mr. Braying McCaffine's tongue so twisted and tied up. I am in awe. I am not sure how he is going to untie his tongue.Gary Johnson did not do this.
Phil did not do this.
Leno did not do this.
Lyn did not do this.
Billy did not do this.Who did this then?Oh dear, this Mr. Braying McCaffine! All by hisself!It's all Science and Medicine! After all, The American medical establishment needs better training!So much for "WORLD-CLASS MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT!" IT IS NOT FUNNY ANYMORE.. TOO MANY HAVE TO DIE FOR IT.. TOO MANY RUINED LIVES.All in the name of science and medicine that needs better training! 
It makes no sense anymore. All in the name of science and medicine, let's bust a poor sick folk. Let's bust someone's door. Let's point a deadly weapon, gun, on someone's head. Let's send drug doggies at every school in this country! Let's force everyone to piss!All in the name of "science and medicine that needs better training!"!Thomas Jefferson was right!ff
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Comment #10 posted by BGreen on July 30, 2002 at 22:41:54 PT
Look at this Letter from Ashcrofts' hometown paper
There is a statewide D.A.R.E. convention meeting in Springfield, MO this week, and this letter will be read by many of them.It doesn't make Ashcroft out to be the "good little Christian" people think he is, it shows him as the evil slimebag he really is.
Marijuana: Demonized plant helps the sick
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Comment #9 posted by BGreen on July 30, 2002 at 22:31:26 PT
He said Gov. Johnson wanted to legalize heroin!
Gov. Johnson corrected him to his face, but McCaffrey repeated that lie again!MCCAFFREY: Sure. You know I was honored to be part of it. We had huge increases in drug prevention funding, drug treatment programs.Governor Johnson and I have certainly disagreed before. I have great respect for him as a person, but weíre also listening to a guy that called for the legalization of heroin. New Mexico has the highest death rate of heroin in the country. I personally find his views on this...JOHNSON: I got to cut in here right now.(CROSSTALK)JOHNSON: Talk about harm reduction strategies for heroin and we have cut down the usage of debt. Weíve cut down deaths from heroin from overdose in the State of New Mexico and nobody seems to really care about that and thatís what weíve done. I never advocated the legalization of heroin. What Iíve talked about is harm reduction strategies on all these other drugs and that is basically to look at this problem as a health problem rather than a criminal justice problem and these are things I get thrown at me all the time.Later ...MCCAFFREY: Well, ask Gary Johnsonís guy who resigned on him when he called for the legalization of heroin and marijuana. The guy quit. We donít agree with his position.Does he think people didn't hear Gov. Johnson? They've gotten away with lying for so long, that they think they can say whatever they want.I found the thread that discusses McCaffreys' financial involvement with an online treatment program.The website for eGetgoing is http://www.egetgoing.com/lowB/index.asp
Ex-'Drug Czar' Aim At Substance Abuse
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Comment #8 posted by ekim on July 30, 2002 at 22:13:07 PT
poster boy for why unleasing army on us is wrong
The appointment of gen. mcquack by a Dem. President no less shows why we can never allow the laws that seperate the military and lawinforcement to merge on us the public. Watching mcquack never waver, never hearing a single word of compassion, never allowing tolerance to enter the picture was very instructional. I get madder by the minute when I think that it was a Dem. Pres that sicked this type of molded closed minded stealy eyed stone cold sad remnance of whats left of a humanbeing when hate takes completly over. Everything that mcquack displayed is anti American. We are better than that, we teach eachother to reason to listen. What have we been fighting for all these years if not to allow personal growth.  No I don't by this crap its too easy, there is something else that is being deflecked. Something that is keeping our minds off what is really being supresed. Anyone in Alanta the home of Pres. Carters seed bank see if there is one Hemp Seed there. Anyone in Maine where making clothing from Hemp is legendary see if anywhere there is still a exibt of Hemp clothing. The USS.Constitution was reconstructed in everyway except the Hempen Sails and Ropes. The Smithsonian has removed all exibits of Hemp. Never a mention of Hemp paper. This drug war lie is the real threat to our safety. More and more countrys are starting to grow Hemp. Up in Canada the different providences are starting to set there own rules. We are being left unable to use our American knowhow when it comes to mastering the growing of Hemp and all the jobs that will come. Who is leaving us so unprotected so unable to fend for ourselves. Who has taken every bit of learned written materal in the form of books and studies and all the artifacts away from the people reguarding Hemp. Who has caused the great U.S.A. to become last in the World in growing this plant when we were one of the best at it. 
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Comment #7 posted by BGreen on July 30, 2002 at 21:59:38 PT
Like the only prisoners are in Federal Prison
MCCAFFREY: The facts of the matter are, if youíre behind bars in a federal prison right now for possession of marijuana, you had more than 200 kilograms on you when we arrested you. Some of these assertions are just clever, but not true.440 pounds of cannabis. Is that some sort of 100 pounds per plant thing? I've known people in jail for cannabis, but I've never known anybody that's even seen 440 pounds at one time.
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Comment #6 posted by Gary Storck on July 30, 2002 at 21:05:51 PT
Nofziger, great again!
I totally agree, Ethan. You could see it in Nofziger's eyes what he thought about McCaffrey's b.s. Nofziger has seen it in real life. One can't afford the abstract in that situation.McCaffrey's best shot was trying to interrupt or talk over everyone else, because his position is so morally bankrupt there was nothing he could say to defend it. But his strategy was so transparent.I hope we see more of Lyn Nofziger. He was great at the press conference last Wednesday, and great again on Donahue.
Is My Medicine Legal YET?
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Comment #5 posted by Ethan Russo MD on July 30, 2002 at 19:10:58 PT:
Nofziger
His performance was absolute dynamite. He made contrary arguments appear as the ignorant trash that they are. Thank God he believes in the truth more than he does about who he may alienate with his brave stance. Bravo!
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Comment #4 posted by E_Johnson on July 30, 2002 at 18:45:36 PT
NIDA backed the thalidomide fastrack! Hah!
 MCCAFFREY: Thirty-six states passed peach pits for cancer. We had thalidomide approved in a lot of states.McCaffrey is even more full of deliberate deceit than usual.Permission for thalidomide clinical studies was fast tracked by the federal government partly because thalidomide reduces TNF alpha, the same inflammatory cytokine that cannabinoids reduce.NIDA was pushing thalidomide as a viable alternative to marijuana for AIDS wasting syndrome.McCaffrey should not use thalidonide this way because anyone up on that issue could rip him to shreds.Thalidomide research was fast tracked by the same federales who held back marijuana research. Marijuana is certainly known to be less toxic than thalidomide, and I hope that even a scoundrel like McCaffrey could be pressured to admit THAT!
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Comment #3 posted by xxdr_zombiexx on July 30, 2002 at 18:33:13 PT:
Barry's Ballet
DONAHUE: Yes, and you know from personal experience; your daughterís pain, nausea, diarrhea, all the accompanying symptoms to the serious illness that was to consume her life, relieved those symptoms.NOFZIGER: Yes. You know we donít claim, I donít think anybody claims that marijuana is a cure but itís a palliative and what it did for her is it got rid of the nausea. It helped with the diarrhea.DONAHUE: Right.NOFZIGER: It restored her appetite and it gave her some comfort during that period of her life when she was undergoing this.DONAHUE: And your feelings about that, General?MCCAFFREY: You know, the bottom line is Iíve spent probably three years of my life in hospitals. Iíve had 17 surgeries. I am all for any reputable therapeutic intervention to control pain. We donít do it very well. The American medical establishment needs better training. We do have terrific drugs nowadays, but at the end of the day if itís medical marijuana weíre talking about, disassociating 32 cannabinoids, and using them in controlled doses for medical reasons, how about it. Weíll make the science do it not a bunch of potheads in California.
Barry refuses to utter the words "smoked marijuana" and he refused to answer Phil's pointed question about his "feelings" and got this verbal ballet.I was so excited see this on TV that I really couldn't take it all in. I was taking notes and trying not gloat over Barry looking outnumbered and displeased. This show and this transcript are sort of a goldmine of Drug Czar propaganda falling on well-educated ears, and a major major milestone in cannabis legalization history, simply by being on commercial TV and being so damn good.Awesome job MSNBC - and I sent them a detailed letter this morning.
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Comment #2 posted by mayan on July 30, 2002 at 18:23:58 PT
Bias - Get Used To It...
MCCAFFREY: Well, I just pointed out it seems to me this is the most biased presentation of the issue Iíve run into. They city councilman whom I have great respect for looks like a better version of Tom Cruise, a great icon to push forward for a city growing pot? Come on. You got to do this with a straight face. I personally think...Welcome to bias, McCaffreak. How does it feel? We've known the feeling for a long,long time. This is just the beginning. Get used to it.unrelated -Saudi prince found dead in desert:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_28319,0005.htmPrince Fahd was the third member of the extensive Saudi royal family to die in a week.
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Comment #1 posted by p4me on July 30, 2002 at 17:32:01 PT
I call bullshit
MCCAFFREY: But we are fully convinced that NIDA should fund any legitimate investigation of either smoke marijuana in the short term or, more importantly, pure cannabinoid research in the long term. Weíre all for it as long as itís science and medicine weíre talking about.Pure bullshit. Just how many warped studies do they have going with dirtweed. And why weren't these studies carried out in earnest back before all the wonderful high priced pills that McCaffrey wants to push. All I say is ask Paul Peterson that applied for a permit to make a standardized pellet and do studies. "WE ARE ALL FOR IT" McCaffrey lies. Well why the f didn't Paul Peterson get his permit then liar. No, instead they take away his lawyer's license even because he wants to use valid Illinois marijuana laws for his clients and himself.They did not even mention the cost of the war on people that use marijuana. They did not talk of corruption, and bribes, and CIA involvement of drugs. They did not talk about the lack of any serious debate in Congress for 65 years come Aug. 2nd. They are still talking at the 8th grade level of listener that makes Reader's Digest the big seller that it is.It really doesn't sink in to people that marijuana is great for some things. I know I have read accounts at the medical stories section at the DE or HempCity messageboars about people going into the DE in wheelchairs, smoking a j or 2, and going home and doing the homework. Why not go get one of those wheel chaired people and show them actual change in front of their eyes. McCaffrey would throw a lie at it and people would wonder if it were not staged. But it could be done with multitudes of people.They could have shown Steve Kubby agonizing in pain, lying on the floor in a Canadian prison, after the US venom wanted him incarcerated. He lost all kinds of weight and could have died. Why didn't they just film him after he was released and MJ medicated again. The films are coming and come Christmas HDTV burners, and the new HDTV video cards, and the new HDTV camcorders are going to be recording a lot of evidence that will make everyone call bullshit at the unsound thinking of McCafree and his chanters and their disconnect from reality.1,2
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