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Politically Incorrect Transcripts: The Drug War

Posted by FoM on April 25, 2002 at 13:37:48 PT
Transcript for Wednesday, April 24, 2002
Source: Politically Incorrect

Bill: Good evening.Welcome to "Politically Incorrect." Let me tell you who's here tonight.Mr. Steve Marmel, very funny comedian, star of "Pop Across America," CNN, weekdays at midnight.Robert Weiner, former spokesman for the White House office of national drug policy --my old job.[ Light laughter ]
Sanho Tree, you're the director of the drug policy project and a fellow at the institute for policy studies.And Rachael Leigh Cook, nothing to do with official drug policy, but you were in that cool commercial where you smashed the thing.Rachael: Yeah.Bill: And your new movie coming out later this year, "Scorched." So give a hand to our panel here.[ Cheers and applause ]And since --Apparently, most of the people here have something to do with the drug culture.Let's talk about that tonight.The drug war --which I guess you're gonna say we're winning.I know you feel we're not winning.A lot of people agree with that.I never thought we did have a war on drugs.We have a war on drug users.But really Colombia, the country in South America, they have a war on drugs.They're the ones who are getting their crops defoliated.They're the ones who are having Apache helicopters overhead and so forth.And, you know, I never really agree when the Arabs say, "We hate you for this reason, this reason and this reason." I think, you know, I'll listen, and you got a point.We're not perfect.But I would understand why people in Colombia hate us, because I think they would say, "You know what, you guys can't stop doing cocaine, so our country has to be defoliated." Is that fair? Robert: No, it's not fair, Bill.It's not fair at all.In fact, Colombia is the number-one source of the cocaine that hits our country, and you're wrong on the fact that cocaine hasn't gone down.Cocaine is down 70% in the last 15 years.If any other social program like poverty, illiteracy or hunger were chopped by two-thirds, would that be a failure? Sanho: It's cheaper than ever before.Steve: He's right.Sanho: Nobody's buying it.Rachael: Nobody's buying it? Bill: Is that figure correct? Has cocaine use gone down 70% in the last 15 years? Robert: Yes, it has.Steve: He's got note cards.He knows.Robert: The surveys they use are government people coming into your homes asking you whether or not you've used drugs in the past.And the criminal sanctions are going up, mandatory minimums.If someone comes to your house, and the government asks you, "Have you done drugs lately," what is your answer going to be? "No, I haven't"? [ Light laughter ]Rachael: Thank you.Sanho: Crime is at record low numbers.One of the reasons is because the crack wars are down.Steve: Come on.I mean, you're in Hollywood.You can't walk into somebody without them powdering up like a talcum bottle here.You can't tell me it's inaccessible, and they're not finding it.Robert: The reality is that overall drug use has gone down by half in America.Crack and cocaine are both down by 70%.Bill: Well, I don't know what drugs you're on reading these statistics.[ Light laughter ]But I would like to be as high as you --[ Laughter ]--When I read --[ Applause ]By the way --Robert: I appreciate that you're master of the acerbic sound bites, but I do hope we're gonna talk some issues here.Bill: We are talking issues.I'm just questioning your statistics, and I think you make a good point.We're talking about people telling the government about their drug use.People are more honest about their erections.[ Light laughter ]Rachael: Why do you think it's gone down that much? I mean, what are you attributing to it? Robert: It's a real good service to the parents, the teachers, the community coalitions, 5,000 of them, who've helped succeed in making drug use go down to say that it's a failure.Bill: That's a lie.D.A.R.E., the biggest program, D.A.R.E., has actually encouraged kids to do drugs.More kids who have been in the D.A.R.E. program do drugs.That's why they discontinued it.So I guess it's done a disservice to them.But listen, in March, the CIA --this is from this week's "Rolling stone." They have an article about Colombia.It said, in March, the CIA announced that Coke cultivation in Colombia was up nearly 25% since we launched "Plan Colombia." Robert: I had a letter in "The Washington Post" that disproves that because they base their number on the clouds.The CIA used incredibly bad intelligence based on --Bill: They based their numbers on clouds? [ Talking over each other ]Sanho: This is reality, and they admitted it.Steve: Have you seen a coca field? Sanho: I've been out in the coca fields.I even chewed the leaf.I didn't swallow.[ Light laughter ]Steve: You seem incredibly focused for a man.[ Applause ]Sanho: But our policies of trying to eradicate this problem using spray planes, all that does is act as a price support.We're trying to take our little bit of the coca off the market, and all it does is elevate the profits for the rest of the people.Bill: Let me broaden this up because we could argue all night about statistics.We each have our own statistics.I don't think anyone, just from circumstantial evidence, from anecdotal evidence, from living in America, would ever question the idea that we live in an enormous drug culture.Would you, Bob? I mean, there are drugs available that are not in your purview because they are not illegal.We live surrounded by drugs.Most people here are probably on a drug right now, whether it's caffeine or nicotine or prozac or alcohol or Xanax.We live in a culture that believes in the quick fix, in taking a pill for everything.My God, we give it to our kids when they act up.So how do you expect people to not cross over occasionally that really blurry fine line between what's legal and what's illegal? And isn't the problem bigger? Yeah, go ahead.Rachael: The question is not, what is the vice? The question is, what is the price? I made a rhyme.[ Light laughter ]No, seriously.Are you addicted to soap operas? Okay, fine.But, you know, do you decide you have to quit your job at home to watch them? Bill: People have.Rachael: That's a problem.Or is it --you know, is it pot? No work ethic.Everything can be a problem.It can develop into a problem.It's just how quick is the road to --Robert: Let's differentiate.Nobody has died because of a cup of coffee.Bill: No one has died from marijuana.But I could name a lots of --Robert: Car crashes.Car crashes.[ Applause ]Steve: And we're not even talking --Robert: Let's talk science.Marijuana is the second-leading cause of car crashes.At the University of Maryland shock trauma unit, more people were in car crashes with marijuana than alcohol.Bill: What was the leading --okay.If I even accepted that, which I don't, 'cause it's stupid --[ Light laughter ]--What would be the leading cause of car crashes? Robert: Alcohol.Bill: Okay.I didn't --Steve: Or cars.[ Laughter ]Bill: Yeah.I bet you're putting on makeup while driving or talking on a cell phone is ahead of marijuana.Okay, but alcohol is the leading cause.But isn't that legal? Robert: There's a real politic in America.People won't tolerate that, but you don't have to create more fires just because one is out there.And by the way, alcohol is illegal in every state of the union for kids under 21, and as a result, there are 30% fewer deaths because of alcohol.Steve: And by the way --Sanho: We choose to regulate alcohol.We don't regulate marijuana.Steve: But if you --I'm sorry.Sanho: People who regulate this economy are organized crime and criminals.Steve: But here's the thing.Kids still get liquor.Kids still drink liquor under 21, and if pot becomes legal, they're going to be able to get the pot, and they're going to be sleepy and unfocused in high school, and it's hard enough to focus in high school as it is.I just don't --[ Laughter ]I don't want to let that genie out of the bottle.Bill: Okay.[ Laughter ][ Applause ]I became a little sleepy and unfocused myself listening to that.[ Laughter ]Robert: We can give you the fodder that we know you'll attack which is that you're 80 times more likely to go to cocaine if you've used marijuana.Bill: That is among the stupid things you've said tonight --the most stupid thing.[ Laughter ]Steve: Why would you throw him that softball? [ Applause ]Why would you give him that? Bill: You have got to be kidding? [ Talking over each other ]Sanho: Every alcoholic started out by drinking milk.[ Laughter ][ Applause ]Bill: But what happened to you to make you have this hard ass --[ Laughter ]--About this particular --I mean, why do you want to put people in jail for doing just something that other people are doing with a slightly different substance? I mean, you said before, when I asked you about the alcohol situation, you said, "Well, we don't need to start another fire." But how do you explain it to the person who's in jail for a marijuana offense that he just went home and rolled up a fatty? Robert: Biggest myth out there.[ Laughter ]Even Marion Barry, who wasn't arrested for the little bit of marijuana that he had, there's a de facto decriminalization of small quantities of marijuana all across the country.What people are in jail for is plea bargained down from doing something more serious.Sanho: Bob, we have 2 million people behind bars in this country.There are only 8 million prisoners in the entire world, so a quarter of our 2 million people are there for nonviolent drug offenses.That's more people behind bars than the entire European Union locked up for all offenses, and they have 100 million more citizens than we do.Are Americans that much more evil than people in the rest of the world, or do we have a screwed up criminal justice system? Rachael: That's what I was gonna say.[ Applause ]Bill: We gotta take a break.We'll come back.[ Applause ]Well, the Vatican sex abuse summit concluded in Rome today.Two days of very intense discussions among clergy about sex with little boys and homosexuality.Or as the priests themselves called it, "Loveline." Bill: Well, Bill Clinton headlined today, playing his saxophone at a voter registration drive at the Apollo Theater.Also featured on the bill were Michael Jackson, Tony Bennett, K.D. Lang.One embarrassing moment, though.Clinton took time out to recognize single moms, and Michael Jackson stood up.[ Laughter ][ Applause ]All right.We're talking about drugs today.Now, I have often said that I think the axis of evil with making any progress and ending the drug war is parents and politicians because politicians, of course, want to pander to the people who vote.The people who vote are parents.Kids don't vote.They don't have to.They don't care.But parents want to protect their kids from drugs, and we understand that, and we want to help them protect their kids from drugs.But, you know, what it turns out to be is jailing Americans like we're saying and confiscating property and corrupting our criminal justice system.So when something comes along to help parents, I'm all for it, and that includes drug testing kids.And I know a lot of kids don't like to hear me say that.Tough.That's why you're kids.You're not adults.In Oklahoma, there's a high school senior who is suing because they made her pee in a cup because the Supreme Court in 1995 said that if you want to play sports, you gotta pee in a cup.We gotta see if you're drug clean.Now they want to see that for all after-school activities.And I say I don't care what they do to the kids in the high school.If it keeps away --if it keeps adults from not having to undergo the kind of silly stuff that we've had to undergo in this country, I think that's fair.No? Steve: I totally agree.If you're there, and you're using Federal Money, and you're taking after-School classes that you're being insured for by that school, and they have to deal with the repercussions of you being high or drunk or coked up, then they should be able to test you for that because they're responsible for you on that.Sanho: The best way to keep kids --Rachael: Aren't they responsible for you in school? Steve: Yes.Rachael: So why not just test everybody? 'Cause my bet is that more kids do drugs who are, you know, cutting periods here and there and just jumping in.Do we test people who are late for class? Bill: That's a good point.It's probably the kids who aren't in the after-school activities.Robert: Exactly.[ Laughter ][ Applause ]That is their after-School activity.Rachael: Exactly.Steve: It's not the kid in the marching band.It's the kid in the grunge band.Sanho: The best way to keep kids off of drugs is between the hours of 3:00 and 7:00 when the parents are away, and they're left alone.The best way to keep them off drugs is to keep them occupied in after-school programs.Get them involved in something besides drugs, because drugs at that age are very much a default activity.And so if you test kids, and you intimidate them from keeping them from joining these clubs after school, what are they gonna do? Bill: It's when the parents aren't around, and that's the problem.The parents want the government to do their job for them, and they are willing to use their fellow citizens as cannon fodder in the war on drugs, to keep their kids away from drugs, and that isn't fair to their fellow citizens.What? Robert: I'm sorry.It's not an either/or.You test them, and you expand your after-school activities.Look, there's been so much made out of peeing in a bottle.It's nothing.It takes 20 seconds, as long as they don't violate the privacy by having somebody go in with them and monitor, which is done in some extreme cases.Bill: Talking about the church now? [ Laughter ]Robert: With what we're going through now with security at airports, to pee in a bottle is a big deal? It's nothing.Bill: Well, it is a big deal for an adult.Sanho: But this is also where we teach kids to be future citizens.We teach them about democracy, the Bill of Rights.We teach them about trust and good behavior, and this is what we show them is like you're not to be trusted.Big brother is fine.You don't need to observe the Bill of Rights.Rachael: Yeah, but don't you think any kid, you know, who sort of got steered away, and so they're like, "Okay, we have to test you," and they said no was not standing up so much for their civil rights as they were thinking, "Okay, if we just maybe put this off for a couple weekends, I can expel that grassroots party I attended last weekend." [ Light laughter ]You know, it's just --"Mom, dad, they're violating me." No, no.Bill: Yes.Steve: It's the kid who doesn't want to get caught is the one who's going to stand up for his rights and not pee in the cup.[ Talking over each other ]Bill: Say it.That's not the right answer.Sanho: The young student from Oklahoma who is now going to a college in New England, she was a test case in the Supreme Court.They're deciding on it now, and she was a, you know, goody two shoes.I mean, she was a real straight arrow, and she said no on a matter of principle.Bill: Because the principle --I mean, that argument that, "Well, why don't you do it if you have nothing to hide," we wouldn't accept that as an adult.We shouldn't accept that as an adult.That would be a violation of the Fourth Amendment.That's why this country is so good because we can do that.But these are children, and parents and teachers, their job is to keep kids healthy and safe because they're too dumb and young to do it themselves.That's what it is to be a kid --dumb and young.Rachael: Wouldn't the ultimate "Told you so" be, you know, passing the test? Wouldn't it be? Sanho: They learn how to cheat.They know that marijuana stays in your body for about a month, so the kids told each other, "Well, we'll do alcohol, do cocaine, do something else." Steve: So it's an applied learning.Bill: Right.[ Laughter ]Steve: We're sending the wrong message to kids.[ Applause ]Bill: I mean, all your statistics about drugs are going down.Yes, certain drugs go down because drug users are clever, and they do other drugs.Ecstasy among teenagers is up 71% because they're too lazy to cut lines.[ Laughter ]Robert: You're big on science with the Bush Administration with global warming and other things.The science is that overall drug use has gone down by half in this country in the last 20 years.Bill: Go to a high school.Just go to a high school.Talk to kids.They're maybe not doing the exact drugs.You're putting your finger in this --Robert: That's wrong.Bill: Then why is ecstasy up exponentially? Robert: Because the Netherlands have such a free society, and they get it off to us.We gotta really hammer at them.[ Light laughter ]Sanho: Oh, Bob, how do you feel about anorexia? We all agree it's a terrible thing.We don't we start jailing some anorexics? Aren't we sending the right message to kids? Steve: 'Cause they'd slide right through the bars.[ Laughter ]Sanho: Should we have weight courts instead of drug courts? Shouldn't we monitor people? Robert: I think the gentleman from the "Cow and Chicken" cartoon shows got it right that drug testing is a good deterrent, and it's what parents should have as a tool.Bill: Okay.We gotta take a break.We'll be back.[ Applause ]Bill: All right, we're talking about drugs in America.What's legal, what's not.You might think my big bugaboo is about the alcohol versus the pot one, but I think there's a worse one, which is, if you really want to talk about the drug America loves, it's speed, because it's good for business, because it's good for productivity.The snack drawer is always for the sugar and the little coffee break, caffeine.You can always fuel up in America on any kind of speed.Don't cross that line to real speed, 'cause then you're a criminal --unless you're rich, then you're a victim.[ Laughter ]But basically, don't Americans love speed, whether it's in Jolt or Mountain Dew or coffee or Vivarin or No Doz? Whatever it is, don't eat right, take more speed.Rachael: Absolutely.That is true.[ Applause ]That's real.I mean, my vice is refined sugar.Bill: Your vice, yes.Because it give you energy? Rachael: No, I just really like it.[ Laughter ]I don't know.[ Applause ]I'm serious.Steve: You're absolutely right, but there's gotta be a line somewhere.No pun intend --[ Laughter and applause ]Great.I mean, of course, it's hypocrisy, but it's like porn, good, donkey porn, bad.There's a line.[ Laughter ]You know, it's like --Bill: But if the government is out to protect our health, how come they can try to hook 3-year-olds on sugar and caffeine and McDonald's, but these illegal drugs that we're talking about, that has to go? No secondhand smoke.Robert: Again, there's science on this.60% of arrestees test positive for illegal drugs.Those are the illegal ones specifically.Only 6% of the population as a whole has used illegal drugs in the last month.Crime, violent crime, methamphetamine, murders, those kinds of things, they are associated with illegal drugs.There's a reason that drugs are illegal.Bill: But where you do think a person gets a taste to move on up to the illegal speed? [ Talking over each other ]Robert: I'm saying that's where the line is.[ Laughter ]And your point is right.You're right on the culture, but you're also not right that the line has to be kept.Steve: I've never drank coffee and went, "God, this is great, but coke would be better." [ Laughter ]Bill: Well, lots of people have.You don't think people do that? You don't think people --Robert: Make that connection? Between, like, a cookie and drugs or sugar and drugs? Bill: I don't know about sugar, but yes, Eric clapton said his drug problems began with sugar.Exactly what he said.Robert: And he didn't know enough to not go to cocaine from that? Bill: It takes years, but what I'm saying is that the root of the problem is that we don't try to fix ourselves in any sort of internal or natural way.We try to fix ourselves with drugs all the time, and then sometimes, we find out, "Ooh, that one has crossed the line into illegality." But that's not the root of the problem, and it's not gonna solve the problem.You can bring all the statistics you want.This is a drug-loving culture, and until we address the real problem, it always will be, and you will never find success in the method you are taking.[ Applause ][ Talking over each other ]Sanho: On the one hand, the government is sending us ads saying if you take drugs, you're supporting terrorists.And the next minute you're running ads for Paxil and Zoloft.You take these drugs, you're an informed consumer.And they're both mind-altering drugs.Bill: Right.Steve: And if you take Paxil, you're calm about terrorism.Robert: You know what the number-one heroin country in the world is? Afghanistan.The number-one cocaine country in the world? Colombia.The two most violent terrorist-prone countries in the world.Sanho: That's because their policies of prohibition elevate these worthless weeds into things that are worth more than Gold.Marijuana is now worth its weight in solid gold, ounce for ounce.Robert: I would agree with you that the policy is outrageous in Afghanistan right now.President Bush has given a pass to growing opium in Afghanistan.[ Talking over each other ]Bill: Your position is President Bush is soft on drugs? Robert: He's soft on opium --[ Laughter ]Bill: That"s ho hard you are on this issue.That drug-loving --and of course, he was.George Bush funded a lot of terrorists in his day, didn't he? Robert: You can't find a presidential candidate who can claim to be drug-free.Bill: All right.We gotta take a break.We'll be back.[ Applause ]Bill: In conclusion, the motto of the Red Bull --you know that product? "It gives you wings." So they're saying, "Use our product, you'll be flying." That's okay.[ Applause ]Guests:Rachael Leigh CookSteve MarmelBob WeinerSanho TreeSource: Politically IncorrectTranscripts: April 24, 2002Copyright: 2002 ABC, Inc.Website: http://abc.go.com/DL : http://abc.go.com/primetime/politicallyincorrect/ Institute for Policy Studies http://www.ips-dc.org Press Release:  Weiner on ABC's 'Politically Incorrect' http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread12641.shtml

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Comment #40 posted by Jose Melendez on April 27, 2002 at 07:15:58 PT:
more on addiction
http://www.reason.com/0205/fe.sp.hungry.shtml
The view of addiction espoused by Leshner and Gordis is at odds with what we know about the actual behavior of drug users and drinkers -- including evidence from government-sponsored research. These studies indicate that treatment is neither necessary nor sufficient for overcoming addiction. The main factor in successful resolution of a drug or alcohol problem is the ability to find rewards in ordinary existence and to form caring relationships with people who are not addicts. By looking instead for a magical elixir just over the horizon, NIDA and the NIAAA give short shrift to the individual circumstances that are crucial to understanding why some people abuse drugs.
Narcosoft.com - technology with substance
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Comment #39 posted by Jose Melendez on April 27, 2002 at 05:07:14 PT:
what a drag it is getting old...
No matter where you look, prohibition has ALWAYS been about lies:From:http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Genesis+3%3A22&NIV-IBS_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&NLT_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&NKJV_version=yes&_version=yes&RSV_version=yes&KJ21_version=yes&NIV_version=yes&WE_version=yes&YLT_version=yes&DARBY_version=yes&ASV_version=yes&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english#crossref_142540437_2Genesis 3
 22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."  
Genesis 3Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of  Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 
Genesis 3
Then the LORD God said, "The people have become as we are, knowing everything, both good and evil. What if they eat the fruit of the tree of life? Then they will live forever!" 
Genesis 3And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3Then the LORD God said, "The people have become as we are, knowing everything, both good and evil. What if they eat the fruit of the tree of life? Then they will live forever!" 
Genesis 3Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
Genesis 3And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us [the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit], to know [how to distinguish between] good and evil and blessing and calamity; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever--
Genesis 3Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" --
Genesis 3And the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever"--
Genesis 3And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Genesis 3And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --
Genesis 3And Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, Man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ...!
Genesis 3
 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever-
Genocide 3And the High Beaurocrat said, it is increasingly becoming of concern that if marijuana were legalized, a significant proportion of society might use the herb to replace so much tobacco, alcohol and prescription drug use that life expectancies might increase to the point where enough of the population actually collects Social Security, pensions and other benefits without generating the windfall tax proceeds normally generated from the aforementioned deadly yet legal substances that our bloated defense budget might be open to inspection or even cut by such enlightened individuals...
Don't freak out: I'm not preaching, just exposing hypocrisy.
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Comment #38 posted by FoM on April 26, 2002 at 20:20:16 PT

Part II - Nightline Special on Oil Tonight
In the National Interest 
Friday, April 26

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/DailyNews/newmideast_020424.html
http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread12642.shtml#21

Underneath the devastated infrastructure and harsh soil of the landlocked, war-torn Central Asian nations is oil, and lots of it. The global war on terrorism brought some stability to this part of the world, but is the energy industry, and Washington, expecting something in return? Tonight, on the second of two broadcasts, the fuzzy line that seperates shared interests, and shared principles. 
  Message Board: Oil in Central Asia 
http://boards.abcnews.go.com/cgi/abcnews/request.dll?LIST&room=tv_oil
Part I -- In the National Interest 
Thursday, April 25
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/index.html

Rebuilding Afghanistan is an issue of economics. Underneath the devastated infrastructure and harsh soil of this landlocked, war-torn nation is oil, and lots of it. The global war on terrorism brought stability to this part of the world, but is the energy industry, and Washington, expecting something in return? Tonight, the first of two broadcasts. 
 Message Board: Oil in Central Asia 
http://boards.abcnews.go.com/cgi/abcnews/request.dll?LIST&room=tv_oil

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Comment #36 posted by FoM on April 26, 2002 at 17:36:26 PT

Jose
I smoke (shame on me) and drink lots of diet coke. I go from coffee to diet coke and when I was young I loved to do prescription diet pills back when they were good and not hard to get. I don't think you can get diet pills ( speed ) now a days like way back when. I quit when they took the fun out. Any stimulant can encourage more drug use I think.Doctor please, some more of these, outside the door she took 4 more! LOL!Made me think of that cool song!
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Comment #35 posted by Jose Melendez on April 26, 2002 at 17:29:38 PT

essentially the same drugs
Are saying caffeine and nicotine MAY lead to speed and coke use?Yes. Because (someone please correct me if I am wrong) they work in the same ways and in the same pathways, they are essentially the same drugs, and it is probably only social mores that would keep you from one or the other...Thanks for taking the point lightly, I really must learn to phrase things nicer, I guess.
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Comment #34 posted by FoM on April 26, 2002 at 17:13:49 PT

Thanks kapt
I really like the people that comment here and can call it home. I think the DrugSense chat is great too. I just can't get there very often. I'm very tired or busy in the evening. I could talk much easier during the week when the news is slow in the afternoon but I know people work and the time is for those who can't get their during the week. Maybe I could get my own chat. That would be nice and have a moderator keep their eye on it. I have a little free chat and I check in now and then and see people use it but I just don't. 
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Comment #33 posted by kaptinemo on April 26, 2002 at 17:06:03 PT:

FoM, it's I who thank YOU
Lest this degenarate into a mutual admiration society:I know of no other 'place' that offers the high caliber of discourse (save for DrugSenseChat and the folks I met at last year's NORML convention) that I've come to expect here; I have given up looking elsewhere. (And Observer will tell you that I am very careful with my adjectives...and lack the temperament to suffer fools gladly. Almost been killed by completely sober but terminally stupid people too many times to have the requisite patience with idiots.) The host is largely responsible for the success of the party; you've done a superb job.As to 'approval'; you certainly don't need my approval for anything; you've held your own quite successfully :) Without you, we would have had a hard time finding a place to 'go'. Many, many thanks!
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Comment #32 posted by Sknydpr on April 26, 2002 at 10:33:51 PT:

What am I protesting?
Don't quote Shakespeare at me, pal! (I'm kidding.)Jose Melendez said: Don't be too offended, you might cross over the line into denial, like chain smoking drug warrior Bill Bennett, or former DEA chief Thomas Constantine:I'm not offended, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are saying caffeine and nicotine MAY lead to speed and coke use?I have used speed a couple of times (way) in the past; it didn't do anything but keep me up all night. Since I like to sleep almost more than anything, that doesn't (and didn't) appeal to me.
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Comment #31 posted by FoM on April 26, 2002 at 09:32:26 PT

kaptinemo
Thank you for your approval. I really do appreciate it. The more I do news the more I see the drug war puzzle falling together. We know how it started and why and now it is so big and complicated that it sometimes scares me. World dominance and oil, black gold, is the prize. DdC on the political board of Cannabis.com was the first one to make me see that aspect. We are filling our earth up with products that can't be returned to the earth but will stay forever. That makes me feel sick. We don't own the earth but share it with animals, fish, trees, birds, sea creatures and microbes. The earth will rebel. The earth itself is more determined to survive then mankind. We are an arrogant world to think we can do what we want and not feel repercussions from it. I could go on and on but that sums up my discust for it all.
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Comment #30 posted by Jose Melendez on April 26, 2002 at 08:52:57 PT:

Modern Maturity - Dare To Be the Skunk 
This is a drug-loving culture, and until we address the real problem, it always will be, and you will never find success in the method you are taking.

[ Applause ]From:http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:JEm5Gt5LyPQC:www.nches.org/01-4ed/04-2001.pdf+colin+powell+modern+maturity+emperor+7+rules&hl=en1. Dare To Be the Skunk
"Every organization," says (United States Secretary of State Colin) Powell,
"should tolerate rebels who tell the
emperor he has no clothes ... and this
particular emperor expects to be told
when he is naked." As a young officer
out of the ROTC program at New
York's City College, Powell headed a
platoon in Vietnam-where he learned
something about how not to lead
others. "We accepted that we had
been sent to pursue a policy that had
become bankrupt," he wrote in his
best-selling autobiography. "The top
leadership never went to the Secretary
of Defense or the President and said,
`This war is unwinnable the way we
are fighting it.'... They bowed to
group-think pressures and kept up
pretenses."
AARPA interview with Colin Powell - PDF format
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Comment #29 posted by Jose Melendez on April 26, 2002 at 08:21:59 PT

hope this table works
Also from:http://www.tobaccofreedom.org/issues/addiction/
	
	TOBACCO
	ALCOHOL
	ILLICIT DRUGS		
	
	
	Annual Death Toll
	Annual Death Toll
	Annual Death Toll	
	U.S. = 450,000
	U.S. = 81,000
	U.S. = 14,000
	
	
	U.K. = 120,000
	U.K. = 40,000
	U.K. = 3,000
	
	
	Australia = 19,019
	Australia = 3,271
	Australia = 1,023
	
	
Narcosoft.com
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Comment #28 posted by Jose Melendez on April 26, 2002 at 08:06:51 PT:

Sknydpr: methinks thou dost protest too much
Don't be too offended, you might cross over the line into denial, like chain smoking drug warrior Bill Bennett, or former DEA chief Thomas Constantine:From:http://www.primenet.com/~lippard/realist.html
From ABC's special, Sex, Drugs and Consenting Adults: Thomas Constantine: "There's a difference between alcohol and cocaine. There's a difference between alcohol and marijuana. Everybody who tries that substance--marijuana, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamines, hashish--does it for one singular purpose. They do it for the purpose of becoming high. I think that's wrong, and I think it's dangerous." John Stossel: "I hate to say this to the head of the DEA, but when I have a glass of gin or vodka, I'm doing it to get a little buzz on. That buzz is bad? Should be illegal?" Constantine: "Well, I think if you drink for that purpose, that's not too smart. I can't tell you what to do with your own life." (emphasis mine -jm) Stossel: "We do want you to tell airline pilots and bus drivers they can't get high on the job. That's hardly victimless. But shouldn't people be allowed to harm themselves if that's what they want to do? Should we outlaw smoking?" Constantine: "When we look down the road, I would say 10, 15, 20 years from now, in a gradual fashion, smoking will probably be outlawed in the United States."Also, from:http://www.tobaccofreedom.org/issues/addiction/Tobacco Users Smoke CrackTobaccoFreedom.org recently discovered a scientific document [estimated mid-80s] -- see:http://www.tobaccofreedom.org/issues/addiction/nicotine_addiction/p1.gif...in the public files located on the RJ Reynolds internet site. Researchers discuss the similarities between nicotine, the addictive chemical in tobacco products, and drugs like cocaine, heroin and marijuana. The tobacco industry knew more than 30 years ago of the highly addictive properties of their tobacco products. Few people today are aware that smoking cigarettes is similar to smoking crack cocaine.The graphic at (snip)http://www.tobaccofreedom.org/issues/addiction/ illustrates the biosynthesis of alkaloids. Common alkaloids are cocaine, heroin and nicotine. As seen in the expanded illustration, nicotine and cocaine are very close "cousins" [2]. The media, and our society in general, place great emphasis on the negative social aspects of illicit substances like cocaine and heroin. Yet, as this evidence shows, nicotine and cocaine are essentially the same drug.
Peace, pot... not poison.
Narcosoft.com - Know drugs, arrest prohibition
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Comment #27 posted by idbsne1 on April 26, 2002 at 07:37:22 PT

more misleading "facts"...
Someone also mentioned this a while back when Joyce made a visit... she used the same source... the Maryland Trauma stats...Someone made the good point that when there is alcohol AND marijuana in the bloodstream...they just chalk it up as marijuana "related". Therefore, the numbers on alcohol should be higher, while mj's numbers should be lower.Thanks guys for all those links....absolutely priceless...idbsne1
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Comment #26 posted by lookinside on April 26, 2002 at 07:02:54 PT:

Hey, FF..!
Glad you are back.
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Comment #25 posted by Sknydpr on April 26, 2002 at 06:55:13 PT:

Caffeine leading to speed
Forgot to mention that I also didn't care too much for Maher's insinuation that caffeine and nicotine are gateways to speed and coke.That's a pretty slippery slope, for someone that denies that marijuana leads to harder drugs.I'm probably a caffeine addict, and definitely addicted to nicotine, but I don't think I'm really likely to 'move up' to speed and coke.I still like Bill Maher a lot, but this wasn't his finest (half-) hour.
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Comment #24 posted by Toker00 on April 26, 2002 at 05:46:27 PT

Dang, Kap...
You have a great way of explaining the big picture. Thanks.Peace. Realize, the Legalize.
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Comment #23 posted by kaptinemo on April 26, 2002 at 04:49:20 PT:

FoM, it is NOT off topic
Nope. It's not off topic at all. Like anything else, there's an ecology at work; parts fitting together to make a whole. The government (run by oil people like Bush and Cheney) know the only way they can get richer is if Central Asia falls under our control. They can't do that without troops. The American public will not stand for a naked resource grab in Central Asia and Latin America. But they will go for a "War on Terror"...especially if they feel their kids threatened by 'drugs' (odd how those same parents don't seem to mind their kids being forcefully doped with Ritalin, isn't it?) so they tepidly give their assent...and the top oil eexcs sit back and smile.We've known for years that the US Oil Elite have wanted the pipeline in Colombia to be secured by US troops under the aegis of 'fighting drugs'. Now they are going to try for a double-play: Colombia and Afghanistan. And because they know that if they just come out and honestly say what they want, the Average (translation: dim-bulbed) American would turn them down. So they have to find a more palatable way of ramming their plans down our throats. Thus, we get the War on (Some) Drugs sloppily spot-welded to the brand-spanking-new but factory-flawed War on Terror. While Afghanis and US service personnel fight and die to make Afghanistan safe for Unocal.Ad execs on Madison Avenue cynically dream up new variations of old themes to incite patriotic fervor (and insult a thinking person's intelligence) to keep people's minds off of the biggest oil grab in history...while CEO's of oil companies sit back and chuckle at the seeming eternal gullibility of the American public.Not off topic at all...
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Comment #22 posted by kaptinemo on April 26, 2002 at 04:29:45 PT:

Welcome back, FF!
Great to see you again! 
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Comment #21 posted by FoM on April 25, 2002 at 20:50:09 PT

Off Topic - On Nightline
In the National Interest 
Thursday, April 25
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/index.html

Rebuilding Afghanistan is an issue of economics. Underneath the devastated infrastructure and harsh soil of this landlocked, war-torn nation is oil, and lots of it. The global war on terrorism brought stability to this part of the world, but is the energy industry, and Washington, expecting something in return? Tonight, the first of two broadcasts. 

  Message Board: Oil in Central Asia 

http://boards.abcnews.go.com/cgi/abcnews/request.dll?LIST&room=tv_oil
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Comment #20 posted by FoM on April 25, 2002 at 20:06:09 PT

freedom fighter 
Welcome back freedomfighter! I've wondered where you've been and am glad you are back. 
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Comment #19 posted by dddd on April 25, 2002 at 19:52:01 PT

Welcome Back FreedomFighter!!
..It's good to see you again!!!!.....dddd
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Comment #18 posted by MikeEEEEE on April 25, 2002 at 19:38:32 PT

Office of control
Robert Weiner looked like a fool. I recommend the Feds keep using him.

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Comment #17 posted by freedom fighter on April 25, 2002 at 19:34:02 PT

Jig is up pal!
Car crashes?What next?How many more excuses??ffPS)It's good to be back online! 
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Comment #16 posted by Nasarius on April 25, 2002 at 18:21:58 PT

sigh
I've just lost all respect for Bill Maher. Wake up: the Bill of Rights doesn't suddenly take effect when you turn 18 or 21 or whatever other arbitrary age you want. There are a whole lot of teenagers who are a lot smarter than most adults, and a great deal of adults who are stupid and immature.
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Comment #15 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 17:02:01 PT:

wrong again
I meant to type:Tests for legal drugs are rare.
Jose Melendez
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Comment #14 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 17:00:55 PT:

wrong again
Robert: Again, there's science on this.
60% of arrestees test positive for illegal drugs.
Those are the illegal ones specifically.
Wrong again: Correlation is not causation. Positive tests for legal drugs are rare.Positive tests for legal drugs are very likely ignored and not ranked.
Jose Melendez
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Comment #13 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 16:52:43 PT:

Arrest Prohibition
Bill: Then why is ecstasy up exponentially? 

Robert: Because the Netherlands have such a free society, and they get it off to us.
We gotta really hammer at them.
The Frontline piece last night tried to editorialize that because Canadian policies (and especially judges) were so liberal, that something needed to be done... This might be the next wave of propaganda.
Narcosoft.com - technology with substance
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Comment #12 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 16:30:56 PT

one of the links below did not work
http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s13p4.html
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Comment #11 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 16:29:13 PT:

Conference on Alcohol, Drugs and Traffic Safety
LEGAL DRUGS AND DRIVING
G Berghaus, B-L Guo
http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s13p1.htmlMedicines and Driver Fitness - Findings from a Metaanalysis of Experimental Studies as Basic Information to Patients, Physicians and Experts
T Asoh, M Uchiumi, M Murasaki
http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s13p2.htmlThe Effects of Tandospirone and Diazepam on Actual Driving Performance
B Friedel, G Berghaus
http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s13p3.htmlMethadone and Driving
G Chesher, J Lemon, M Gomel, G Murphy
http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95paper/s13p4.htmlAre the Driving-Related Skills of Clients in a Methadone Maintenance Programme Affected by Methadone?
M Ohtsuji, T Ohshima, T Takayasu, J Nishigami, T Kondo, Z Lin, T Minamino
http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s13p5.htmlScreening of Antihistamine Agents (Diphenhydramine) with Blood and Urine Samples by REMEDi-HS System

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Comment #10 posted by dddd on April 25, 2002 at 16:28:40 PT

....my favorite..
..I think Bob Weiner is my new favorite...after seeing him on PI,,and the way he proudly,,and boldly made the typical assinine proclamations of drugwarSpeak,,,unflinching in his obsessive fervor...Shrugging off,and ignoring the obvious idiocy of his words.......yup...Robert Wiener,,,A true Classic!...
...dddd 
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Comment #9 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 16:15:32 PT:

Traffic Accident Patterns and Driver Impairment
Fromhttp://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s4p2.htmlToxicologies showed: 37% alcohol-only; 11% alcohol-and-drugs; and 9% drugs-only. The most frequently found drugs were: 48% alcohol; 13% tetrahydrocannabinol or its metabolites (THC/THCCOOH); 4% cocaine; and 5% diazepam. Due to the low frequencies of drug use found in the toxicological analyses, a number of drug - "dummy" related variables were created by grouping drugs into present/absent categories: central nervous system stimulants; central nervous system depressants; tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and/or tetrahydrocannabinol metabolite (THCCOOH); and alcohol. 
Jose Melendez cannabisnews.com ADDICT
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Comment #8 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 16:06:55 PT:

statistics vs. damned lies
From:http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s1p2.htmlMarijuana's effects on actual driving performance were assessed in a series of three studies wherein dose-effect relationships were measured in actual driving situations that progressively approached reality. The first was conducted on a highway closed to other traffic. Subjects (24) were treated on separate occasions with THC 100, 200 and 300 g/kg, and placebo. They performed a 22-km road tracking test beginning 30 and 90 minutes after smoking. Their lateral position variability increased significantly after each THC dose relative to placebo in a dose-dependent manner for two hours after smoking. The second study was conducted on a highway in the presence of other traffic. Subjects (16) were treated with the same THC doses as before. They performed a 64-km road tracking test preceded and followed by 16-km car following tests. Results confirmed those of the previous study. Car following performance was only slightly impaired.(emphasis mine - jm) The third study was conducted in high-density urban traffic. Separate groups of 16 subjects were treated with 100 g/kg THC and placebo; and, ethanol (mean BAC .034 g%) and placebo. Alcohol impaired performance relative to placebo but subjects did not perceive it. THC did not impair driving performance yet the subjects thought it had. These studies show that THC in single inhaled doses up to 300 g/kg has significant, yet not dramatic, dose-related impairing effects on driving performance. 
Narcosoft.com - because drug war is CRIME
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Comment #7 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 15:59:31 PT:

more numbers
From:http://www.giis.org/roadhazard.htmNarrow highways with minimal (if any) shoulders and unforgiving roadsides are a major contributing factor in roadway deaths each year. Some 58 percent of Kentucky's fatalities occur on rural roads.
Nearly 44 percent of Kentucky highway deaths are the result of collisions with fixed objects along the
roadside. Some 24 percent of fatalities* involved a driver driving under the influence of alcohol. (*these are Kentucky state numbers)

Narcosoft.com - technology with substance
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Comment #6 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 15:55:18 PT:

I love it when numbers DO add up
From:http://www.giis.org/roadhazard.htmMost of the annual 42,000 car crash fatalities occur on two-lane roads where many of the roadway hazards are located. The U.S. Federal Highway Department noted in 1995 alone there were 37,221 fatal vehicle crashes resulting in 41,798 deaths across the U.S., and 77 percent of these fatal crashes (28,552) occurred on two-lane roads. Nearly 12,000 of all fatalities that occur each year involve vehicles hitting fixed objects such as trees and poles, according to the government.

Narcosoft.com - technology with substance
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Comment #5 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 15:51:50 PT:

real cause of most car crash fatalities: alcohol
From:http://www.health.state.ok.us/program/injury/updates/mvcalc.html In the U.S. an estimated 115 motor vehicle fatalities occur per day or one every 13 minutes. In 1995, there were a total of 17,274 alcohol-related traffic fatalities in the U.S. which accounted for 41% (17,274/41,798) of the total traffic fatalities for the year.Criminalize beer or shut up.
Arrest Prohibition
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Comment #4 posted by Jose Melendez on April 25, 2002 at 15:46:31 PT:

caffeine fatality
Re:Robert: Let's differentiate.
Nobody has died because of a cup of coffee.FALSE
From:http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:95l5fA1wiLEC:www.thename.org/meetings/1997mtgs.htm+%22caffeine++related%22+fatalities&hl=en1997 Meeting Contents
National Association of Medical Examiners
A LETHAL INGESTION OF NO DOZ: CASE STUDY AND REVIEW OF THE
LITERATURE
Russell L. Uptegrove, MD, Kim Collins, MD
Department of Pathology, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina
Caffeine (1,3,7-trimethylxanthine) is the worlds most widely used stimulant drug. In the
United States, it is estimated that over 80% of the population drink coffee or tea. Substantial quantities are also consumed in soft drinks, cold and allergy medications, appetite suppressants, menstrual products, stimulants and pain relief formulas. Some prescription drugs also contain caffeine. In general, peak levels can be expected
anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes after ingestion. The half life ranges from 3-7.5 hours in healthy adults. 
The half life is much longer in children and infants. The half life may be increased in individuals with liver
insufficiency or deceased cardiac output. There is a wide variation in lethal levels in reported fatalities. 
Review of a very limited data base shows that caffeine-related deaths in humans are usually due to arrhythmias. 
District histologic changes are not present. No Doz tablets are available over-the-counter and area commonly used to help restore mental alertness or wakefullness when experiencing fatigue or drowsiness. No Doz contain 100 mg of caffeine per tablet. No Doz Maximum Strength caplets contain 200 mg of caffeine per caplet.We report the sudden death of a 15 year old white male with no significant past medical history. 
After having an argument with his grandmother in when he was allegedly hit with a broom, he was witnessed
taking 40 No Doz Maximum Strength caplets. Approximately 1-1.5 hours later, he reported a headache, shaking and feeling nervous inside. He reported that he couldnt sleep. He went to lie down on a sofa and was found
dead the next morning. At autopsy, the lungs, liver, kidneys and spleen were hyperemic. Toxicological analysis of the blood was negative for ethanol. The urine drug screen was positive for
acetaminophen=(21 mg/L) and caffeine=(46 mg/L). The stomach contents were analyzed and acetaminophen and caffeine were detected by thin layer chromatography. The drug quantitation performed on the stomach contents by high pressure liquid chromatography revealed a caffeine level of 330 mg/L. Based on history and
toxicological analysis, the cause of death was determined to be probable cardiac arrhythmia secondary to caffeine toxicity. The manner of death was deemed a suicide.
Key words:  Caffeine, No Doz, Overdose
NAME: Russell L. Uptegrove, MD
ADDRESS:   Medical Examiners Office, 171 Ashley Avenue CITY: Charleston STATE: SC  ZIP CODE: 29425
TELEPHONE: (803) 792-3500 FAX: (803) 792-3537 

Arrest Prohibition
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Comment #3 posted by mayan on April 25, 2002 at 15:36:01 PT

What a Quote!
"George Bush funded a lot of terrorists in his day, didn't he?"(referring to the Shrub's "youthful indiscretion" with cocaine)                - Bill Maher
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Comment #2 posted by observer on April 25, 2002 at 14:28:00 PT

''car crashes''
Robert: Car crashes.
Car crashes.[ Applause ]Steve: And we're not even talking --Robert: Let's talk science.
Marijuana is the second-leading cause of car crashes.
At the University of Maryland shock trauma unit, more people were in car crashes with marijuana than alcohol.More weasel words. "In car crashes", eh? At fault, or innocent victims? Of course, they omitted that little 'detail' and insinuate the worst. That's why they pay the big bucks to prohibition propagandists like Weiner.see:Cannabis/Driving StudiesAustralia: No Proof Cannabis Put Drivers At Risk (2001)
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1849/a09.htmlUK: Cannabis May Make You A Safer Driver (2000) 
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n1161/a02.html University Of Toronto Study Shows Marijuana Not A Factor In Driving Accidents (1999)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases\1999\03\990325110700.htm Australia: Cannabis Crash Risk Less: Study (1998) 
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v98/n945/a08.html Australia: Study Goes to Pot (1998) 
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v98/n947/a06.html

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Comment #1 posted by Sknydpr on April 25, 2002 at 14:15:12 PT:

Pretty good show...
I just watched this show about an hour ago.As usual, the anti-drug guy just spouted a lot of idiotic rhetoric, which Bill Mahr (the host) didn't hesitate to label as stupid or a lie.Mahr did let a couple of points slip by, such as when the comedian said that kids can't legally buy liquor but they get it anyway and that he didn't want to make MJ more accessible to them.Of course, the point to be made here would be that MJ is more available to kids than liquor, NOW, since there's zero control over the distribution.Mahr also came out in favor of drug-testing any and all public school students, which I found bewildering.
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