cannabisnews.com: Marijuana Could Be a Gusher of Cash 





Marijuana Could Be a Gusher of Cash 
Posted by CN Staff on September 11, 2008 at 06:11:04 PT
By Steven Wishnia, AlterNet
Source: AlterNet
USA -- If marijuana were legal but taxed like alcohol and tobacco, how much money could it bring in to cash-strapped state governments?One 2006 study called cannabis the top cash crop in the nation, worth more than corn and wheat combined. It was the leading crop in 12 states, outstripping grapes in California and tobacco in North Carolina, and one of the top three in 18 others, coming in just behind apples in Washington and cotton in Georgia. So with states facing massive deficits, could reefer revenues help?
The answer is unclear, but it could be lucrative for governments, especially when combined with the savings from ending prohibition. As the U.S. marijuana market is illegal, there are no sales figures. Estimates of its size range from $10.5 billion a year to $113 billion. But three studies done by economists and policy analysts say ganja taxes could bring in anywhere from $2.4 billion to $31.1 billion in revenue, depending on how big the sales really are. About one-third of that would go to the states."There's not enough really good data on it, so it's probably best to look at it in ballpark figures," says Jon Gettman, a Virginia policy analyst who has worked with the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws and the Marijuana Policy Project. "But there's a consensus that there's an awful lot of marijuana out there and that it's very valuable.""The Budgetary Implications of Marijuana Prohibition," a 2005 study by Harvard economics professor Jeffrey A. Miron, makes the most conservative projections of the three studies. It calculates possible pot tax revenues at $2.4 billion. That's assuming that prices would drop about 25 percent under legalization, that pot-related economic activities were taxed at the national average of 30 percent, and that the federal Office of National Drug Control Policy's estimate that the domestic cannabis market is worth $10.5 billion is accurate. If herb were taxed more heavily, as alcohol and cigarettes are, that could bring in as much as $9.5 billion -- although excessive "sin taxes" could cause pot smokers to cut down or grow their own, diminishing revenues.States with higher rates of marijuana use, such as California and New York, would collect a somewhat higher proportion of taxes than states with lower rates, such as Pennsylvania and Texas. Miron estimates that California would take in $105 million at ordinary levels of taxation.However, others in the field believe that the government's $10.5 billion figure is absurdly low. Dan Hamburg, a former congressman from Northern California's sinsemilla belt, says the Mendocino County Board of Supervisors estimates bud production in that county alone at between $1 billion and $1.5 billion, worth far more than timber and grapes. California's medical marijuana dispensary owners claim they pay $100 million a year in state sales taxes.The methods used to estimate the size of the marijuana market involve a great deal of speculation. Determining the supply involves taking the amount of domestic and imported marijuana seized by law enforcement, guessing what percentage of the total amount of homegrown and smuggled weed that represents, and extrapolating from there. Additional variables include how much a single plant can yield -- anywhere from less than an ounce to more than a pound -- and the retail price, which can be loosely sensed from the reader-contributed snippets in High Times magazine's monthly market quotations ("Chicago, Purple Kush, $450/oz") and the Drug Enforcement Administration's STRIDE index, which narcotics agents use to figure out how much to pay for the drugs they try to buy. Demand can be estimated from government and academic household surveys of drug use -- but these are far from specific, especially when you use the limited data on frequency of use to try to figure out how much people spend on pot."It's hard to match the supply-and-demand data," says Gettman. "Sometimes you don't know what it is, but you know what it's not." He estimates the value of the U.S. weed market at $113 billion, based on a supply of more than 14 million kilos, an average retail price of about $220 an ounce, and between 25 million and 40 million pot smokers.That number seems high. It would require 40 million people to spend an average of $55 a week on weed. But Gettman cites United Nations data that has estimated U.S. cannabis cultivation at 10 million to 14 million kilos for the past several years. The federal government has reduced its estimate of domestic production from 10 million kilos in 2002 to between 2.8 million and 6.6 million kilos in 2006, but those figures, he says, are "complete politics." They're based on the assumption that law enforcement eradicates 30 to 50 percent of all the pot plants grown in the United States, and that plants average a pound each.As for demand, "there is a small amount of people who go through an incredible amount of pot." On the other hand, many of the heaviest ganja users are growers and dealers who go into the business in part so they can essentially get free pot and don't have to pay retail prices for the amounts they smoke.Gettman's 2006 study "Marijuana Production in the United States" estimated the domestic crop at 10 million kilos, worth a total of $35.8 billion.California NORML's estimates are in that ballpark. In 2003, the group figured that if 600,000 to 700,000 people in the state smoke two cigarette-size joints every day and 1 million smoke one joint every 10 days, then the total market in the state would be $3 billion to $5 billion under legalization -- at the lower end if prices dropped to the Dutch average of about $170 an ounce, at the higher end if consumption increased. State sales taxes would generate $240 million to $400 million, and a $56-an-ounce excise tax could bring in another $1 billion. If pot were taxed at the same 50 percent rate as cigarettes, total revenues would be $1.5 billion to $2.5 billion. Nationally, California NORML claims, a $56-an-ounce tax would bring in $6 billion to $13 billion.Miron dislikes the concept of such "sin taxes," saying it's a bad idea to tax what's "politically unpopular." But he says they're generally effective if consistent throughout a federal system, where people can't go to a state with lower costs. If the tax is too high, however, people might try to evade it by growing their own. Miron thinks that won't be significant. "Some people are going to buy tomatoes in a supermarket, and some are going to grow their own," he says. "Most people will opt for convenience." On the other hand, given that home growing has become widespread and well-entrenched in the last 30 years, potheads fetishize strains like White Widow and Bubbleberry, and herb costs significantly more than tomatoes, it's likely that many people would do their own gardening if the danger of prison and forfeiture were lifted.Legislators active on cannabis issues have not investigated the revenue possibilities much. "I don't think I could even begin to put a number on it, because there are so many variables," says a staffer for New York State Assemblymember Richard Gottfried, who has sponsored several unsuccessful medical marijuana bills recently. Instead, they focus on the money that would be saved by not prosecuting marijuana users or that could be gained by farming industrial hemp.Massachusetts state Sen. Patricia Jehlen, sponsor of a bill to reduce the penalty for possession of less than an ounce to a $250 fine, calls trying to project pot tax revenues "speculative," but she says decriminalization would save the state $24 million a year.Miron's study estimates that "legalizing marijuana would save $7.7 billion per year in government enforcement of prohibition," with $2.4 billion of that going to the states. Gettman's 2007 report says "marijuana arrests cost taxpayers $10.7 billion annually."Northern California's Humboldt and Mendocino counties, where marijuana is a crucial part of the economy, have been frustrated in their efforts to get direct revenues from it, according to Hamburg. Schemes proposed in Mendocino included having the county sell permits for $25 a plant and setting up a growers' cooperative that would inspect, certify and market medical herb crops as organically and locally grown. But "anything we came up with along those lines, our lawyers said was impossible."Miron says potential tax income is "the least important reason to legalize" cannabis when compared with the "horrific" precedents prohibition sets for government power and the damage criminalization does to users. And even at the highest estimates, reefer revenues would not be enough to cover budget deficits the size of California's estimated $15 billion, New York's $6.4 billion, Florida's $1.5 billion, or Massachusetts' $1.3 billion. Still, the combination of reducing expenditures on enforcement and collecting taxes on legal sales could help save the states from having to lay off workers or cut health care payments.NORML head Allen St. Pierre says that when he was lobbying in Texas last year for a bill that would let local governments decriminalize marijuana possession, one legislator told him that prohibition "is no longer a luxury we can afford." The Austinist, noting that marijuana possession accounts for about 7 percent of arrests in the state at a cost of $2,000 each, called the bill "a money-saving effort more than anything else."Steven Wishnia is a New York-based journalist and musician. The author of Exit 25 Utopia and The Cannabis Companion, he has won two New York City Independent Press Association awards for his coverage of housing issues. He is looking for a job.Complete Title: Marijuana Could Be a Gusher of Cash If We Treated It Like a Crop, Not a CrimeSource: AlterNet (US)Author: Steven Wishnia, AlterNetPublished: September 11, 2008Copyright: 2008 Independent Media InstituteContact: letters alternet.org Website: http://www.alternet.org/URL: http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/98317CannabisNews -- Cannabis Archiveshttp://cannabisnews.com/news/list/cannabis.shtml
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Comment #45 posted by ekim on September 14, 2008 at 10:05:46 PT
pete has story on youtube
Saturday, September 13, 2008 http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/
Just what is drug abuse, anyway?YouTube has bowed to pressure to remove certain categories of videos, based on demands by Joe Lieberman in his efforts to protect us from the terrorists. I'm not sure how it was supposed to work for the terrorists -- maybe they were using funny YouTube videos to distract us at work in order to bring down America's productivity -- but obviously Deputy Droopy Dog is out there watching out for us... 
Among the other changes handed down was a prohibition of videos containing "drug abuse"--a phrase that, like other parts of YouTube's rule set, comes with no context, elucidation, examples, or anything else that would help users figure out what "abuse" might actually mean in practice. [...] 
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Comment #44 posted by FoM on September 14, 2008 at 08:16:18 PT
SNL: Clinton and Palin Skit
It was so funny. I actually thought for a second that Tina Fey was Palin. I hope others got to see it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nMuR1TFq1s
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Comment #43 posted by FoM on September 13, 2008 at 20:24:03 PT
ekim
Obama isn't doing SNL tonight because of the Hurricane but I'm sure SNL will be good. I bet Tina Fey does a skit about Palin. The first time I saw Palin I did a double take.
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Comment #42 posted by ekim on September 13, 2008 at 20:18:12 PT
obama on snl
soon
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Comment #41 posted by ekim on September 13, 2008 at 20:07:30 PT
man its been raining all day about 4 in. here
FoM do you know anyone in Kempton i wish that MI would invite David to speak we need to hear that biofuels mean jobs----comonobamaPennsylvania Renewable Energy and Sustainable Living Festival
Submitted by farmerdave on July 17, 2008 - 15:07.
Start: Sep 19 2008 - 8:00am
Timezone: US/Eastern
Description: 
http://permaculture.com/node/569
David will be a featured speaker at the Pennsylvania Renewable Energy and Sustainable Living Festival Fri., Sat. & Sun. - Sept. 19, 20, & 21, 2008 at the Kempton Community Center, Kempton, PA 
 
A three-day festival about renewable energy, natural building construction, sustainable agriculture, land-use planning, forestry and healthy living practices in general. http://www.paenergyfest.com/Location(s)
Kempton Community Center
Kempton, PAMichigan Bio-Economy Summit
http://www.miagbiz.org/
September 17, 2008Lansing Center - Lansing, MIMap to Lansing Center--------------- This conference is made possible by sponsorships from:Corn Marketing Program of Michigan/Michigan Corn Growers Assn.
Council for Biotechnology Information
GreenStone Farm Credit Services
Michigan Farm Bureau
Michigan State University Office of Biobased Technologies
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Comment #40 posted by FoM on September 13, 2008 at 19:58:52 PT
fight_4_freedom 
That's great news. I think you will meet some very nice people. I am not doing any of the Fairs because of my family's issues. I think they have plenty of help around here luckily. I will be glad when Obama wins. I will be nervous until that day anymore. I can't imagine Palin ever becoming President. I think I would crawl in a hole and never come out. She is about the opposite of my value structure as anyone could be. I say Palin becoming President because of McCain's age and past health problems. 
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Comment #39 posted by fight_4_freedom on September 13, 2008 at 19:50:46 PT
Drowning would be a horrible way to go
I hope the people of Texas recover from this quickly and safely. When I went to wait in line for gas last night it was 3.88. I drove past that same gas station this afternoon and it had already jumped to 4.19. Good thing I listened and filled her up.I went to the local Obama office today. They were all out of yard signs and car stickers. They told me as soon as they get the yard signs they are gone almost immediately. I had to put myself on a waiting list to get some. lolWhen I got home later on a woman from the office called me to see if I would volunteer to help out with the campaign. I told her I would gladly do what I could to help. So I will probably be helping out at the local office 1 day a week starting pretty soon here. It's not much but I still think it will be a good experience. OBAMA IN 08'ATTENTION MICHIGAN VOTERS..... "VOTE YES ON PROPOSAL 1"
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Comment #38 posted by FoM on September 13, 2008 at 19:34:52 PT
Hope
When we went thru Hurricane Agnes it was enough for me. I had to help rescue Stick's mother, grandmother and sister. They were trapped by flood waters and I went to a road and they were put in a boat and brought over to where I was and I took them home. I didn't even know Stick then. I lived on a hill and didn't get any water problems but so much of Reading and Pottstown Pa was under water. We knew that Ohio didn't get hurricanes and that was a plus for us when we decided to move out here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Agnes
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Comment #37 posted by Hope on September 13, 2008 at 18:38:28 PT
Drowning 
or getting beat to death or impaled or cut by wind borne objects or crushed by falling ceilings or walls.Very scary.It's worse just over from us. Lots of trees are down, I've just been told. Electricity is out.There's problems. It must have been terrifying to be in Galveston or anywhere along that part of the coast last night. One survivor has said he thought it was the right thing to do when he and his family stayed... but he said today after a harrowing survival that he was wrong and he'd never do it again.I saw one of the network guys get blown over. It was a seventy mile per wind and he was a healthy strong looking man and it just blew him off his feet through some bushes and trees and onto a car parked nearby.
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Comment #36 posted by FoM on September 13, 2008 at 17:46:38 PT
Hope
It was terrible down on the coast. The ocean was so swollen and violent. I don't know how the people did in Galveston who tried to ride the storm out. I could never do anything like that. Drowning doesn't sound like a good way to go.
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Comment #35 posted by Hope on September 13, 2008 at 16:50:28 PT
Uh oh. Uh oh.
Some pretty good wind gusts going on if you're quiet enough to notice it.
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Comment #34 posted by Hope on September 13, 2008 at 16:43:23 PT
The eye must have passed...
and I'm now in the other side of Ike or the other side of it is passing over me now. Very much fairly gentle rain... which I'm told is "Tropical" style rain.Breeze is up. Gentle winds.Definitely not, I'm thankful, anything like the winds blowing down on the coast last night. It is a very huge... as in large in dimension... storm.
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Comment #33 posted by Hope on September 13, 2008 at 15:43:09 PT
comment 31
Fine here. Apparently Ike just passed through this area. Rain and gentle winds. Some folks have a mess on their hands, though and lot's of people without power.
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Comment #32 posted by ekim on September 13, 2008 at 08:56:06 PT
thanks Commonsense
i think you would like Alcohol can be a gas by David Blume.
our local library found me a copy as it has been sold out and just now printing a new order.the book was written in 2007 and has a DVD.and says that Brazil mandates 25% ethanol in all its gas.Looks like Howard Wooldridge is reaching many lawmakers.LEAP on the HillStories from the week of September 5, 2008We want your list:  As you know, Senator Jim Webb (VA-D) has held two hearings on the negative impact of having 2.3 million behind bars.* I stopped by his office this week & chatted with his chief judiciary* aide, Nelson Jones. He informed me that the next set of hearing will probably be in late October and yes, he would like to review LEAP speakers for possible testimony. He now has the names and bios-biographies of 15 speakers LEAP has determined are ready at this level.  Small steps.* behind bars = im Gefängnis*judiciary = GerichtsbehördenHurricane LEAP hits Pennsylvania: David Young of the ACLU* and I met a few months ago at their conference here in DC.  He threatened to bring me to Lewisburg, PA to speak out. This week he made good on the threat.  An 18 hour day on Wednesday yielded an hour long talk radio appearance and presentations at two venues.* After two interviews by mainstream newspapers, the next day there were long articles & large (5 X 6 = 12cm X 15cm) fotos on the front page and the headline: ‘Ex-Cop says: Legalize Drugs.’ By the way, Vice President candidate Sarah Palin was also on the front page with a foto that was one inch by one inch (2.5cm x 2.5cm) LOL = Laughing out loud. As an added bonus, an oped in one paper criticized our ‘surrender’ approach to drug use. *ACLU – American Civil Liberties Union* venue = TreffpunktYou from LEAP? After my last presentation in Pennsylvania, I stopped at the Taco Bell for a quick bite before the 3 hour drive home. Putting the key in the door, an employee and college student asked, “You from LEAP?” (he had seen the magnetic signs on the tailgate).* Though very tired, we chatted for 7-8 minutes, as the student expressed an interest in donating next summer to LEAP as an unpaid intern. *tailgate = ‘hinter Tür’ am Pickupwagen.Crawling into bed at 0100, the cowboy was a happy camper.* Way To Go ACLU and David Young!!Happy camper = umgangssprachlich = froh zu sein How’s your French?: An appearance on a popular BBC radio program by LEAP Trail Boss* Jack Cole resulted in a call to LEAP from a Paris radio station. Mike Smithson is coordinating LEAP speakers to appear on French radio. He called me to make certain I was fluent enough to handle a drug conversation en français. ‘Oui, pas de problème. In my ‘spare time’ the past 3 years I have translated into French, Spanish and German LEAP’s mission statement, 10 FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), my presentation to Congressional staff and my 18 minute Rotary speech.’  Though French is my weakest language, I am ready for the phone to ring.* Trail Boss = der Chef
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Comment #31 posted by FoM on September 13, 2008 at 08:27:25 PT
Hope
I hope you and all the folks of Texas are ok after this terrible storm hit your state. 
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Comment #30 posted by FoM on September 13, 2008 at 08:24:15 PT
I Have a Dream
When I think of an ideal cannabis world I think of people being able to grow victory gardens. I would love to see Cannabis sold in Alternative Medicine Stores. I'm from a time where cannabis and alcohol were not consumed by the same type of people. Cannabis was to be an alternative to alcohol since so many from my generation saw the damage of heavy alcohol consumption.
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Comment #29 posted by Commonsense on September 13, 2008 at 00:41:37 PT
ekim
Actually the vast majority of the fuel they use in Brazil is petroleum fuel. They have huge reserves and keep discovering more. They do use a lot of ethanol in cars. I've been to Brazil a number of times and have ridden in cars burning pure ethanol. But ethanol is actually only something like 15% of the liquid fuel they use. Only a small percentage of Brazilians even drive. They also produce their ethanol supply with their abundant supply of sugarcane, something we cannot do. We're getting maybe 350 gallons per acre here on average and that's not enough to supply even half what an average American driver needs in a year. We do not have anywhere close to enough available farmland to produce enough ethanol to supply all our drivers or even a large minority of our drivers and still produce enough food to feed our population. Cellulosic ethanol is still too expensive to produce to be an economical alternative, and actual real world per acre cellulosic ethanol yields at this point still aren't that much better than yields from corn. Before any biofuels are ever going to be a viable alternative for us we are going to have to come up with a way to produce enough fuel per acre to supply several drivers per year, and we're going to have to be able to do this pretty darned cheaply. Unfortunately, we aren't even close to being able to do that yet. Biofuels like ethanol and biodiesel are cool ideas, but for now at least costs are too high and per acre yields are too low for us to be able to do anything with these fuels but supply a tiny fraction of our liquid fuel needs, and we can't do that without government subsidies and mandates
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Comment #28 posted by Commonsense on September 12, 2008 at 23:44:45 PT
afterburner
More than just competition will drive the prices lower, economy of scale will knock the prices way down. Most all of it will be grown outdoors in huge fields on farms that span thousands of acres. They'll mechanize the process as much as possible like they do with crops like corn. Hardly any will be grown indoors under lights. What is grown indoors today will be grown in row after row of greenhouses with only supplimental artificial lights if any. Production costs will drop through the floor. I see hash becoming a major product if it's allowed. Dual use strains could be developed for oil or fiber production as well as the production of hash. The plants would be harvested mechanically, and the trichomes could be seperated with machines and pressed into hash and the seeds and/or fiber could be used for other purposes. They'll blend the resin from different strains and come up with heavily processed and homogeneous branded product like we seem to like to do with everything else. They'll add stabilizers and preservatives to give it a ridiculously long shelf life, advertise it and sell it to the masses like Bud Light. Isn't that the way we do things in this country? Taxes and regulatory costs will be the only things that keep prices up.
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Comment #27 posted by afterburner on September 12, 2008 at 22:10:38 PT
Commonsense #8
Videotape is a good example of how the price and danger of cannabis prohibition could be reduced. When Sony first sold VCRs capable of recording movies, the big studios sued Sony and tried to prohibit the new technology. Eventually, Disney realized that many people would pay for a studio-quality copy instead of a fuzzy off-the-air home copy. They dropped the suit. Sony was allowed to sell the VCRs, and they both continued to make money.Once commercial cannabis production is allowed instead of prohibited, the price will drop because of competition. Many people will favor the convenience of buying the product. Organic cannabis will be preferred by the natural foods crowd, so that radioactive chemicals found in fertilizers will not contaminate the product. Governments will make money on taxes, instead of fines, forfeiture, and human prison slavery. The trickiness of paraphernalia prohibition, drug testing and lying about health effects will fade away as we establish a true government of the people. The new government will actually protect human health, instead of generating profits for Big Pharma and AgriBiz at the expense of human health and safety. How long will all this take? It's all about taking responsibility for our own health, the health of society and the health of the planet and all its species.
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Comment #26 posted by ekim on September 12, 2008 at 21:20:09 PT
these are but two examples of the two min summay
http://permaculture.com/under Press RoomWHY ALCOHOL FUEL? 
THE TWO-MINUTE SUMMARYAlmost every country can become energy-independent. Anywhere that has sunlight and land can produce alcohol from plants. Brazil, the fifth largest country in the world imports no oil, since half its cars run on alcohol fuel made from sugarcane, grown on 1% of its land. We can reverse global warming. Since alcohol is made from plants, its production takes carbon dioxide out of the air, sequestering it, with the result that it reverses the greenhouse effect (while potentially vastly improving the soil). Recent studies show that in a permaculturally designed mixed-crop alcohol fuel production system, the amount of greenhouse gases removed from the atmosphere by plants—and then exuded by plant roots into the soil as sugar—can be 13 times what is emitted by processing the crops and burning the alcohol in our cars. 
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Comment #25 posted by FoM on September 12, 2008 at 20:56:17 PT
ekim
I think if we are so lucky to get Obama as our next President we will see more alternative fuels being promoted. We can't depend on oil forever. We need help for the future generations.
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Comment #24 posted by ekim on September 12, 2008 at 20:40:41 PT
help have David Blume speak to your city 
FoM i hope cheech will read about Ethanol and start telling the people about how we can make our fuel so when a storm like IKE comes we will be able to still keep trucken- and turn this energy crisis in to a gold mine just think that if we can build these bio refineries in say 50 mile areas -- we need jobs and fuel products will keep local money at home. We must spread the fuel production over a larger sector of the pop. The schools can teach this concept and a new industry and completly different way of thinking of our fuel and other related industrys.If you are interested in ethanol for fuel please see David Blume's event page and have him come and speak to your city. http://permaculture.com/eventhttp://www.cvsustainables.org/ Providing a comprehensive two hour talk on Ethanol production and use 
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Comment #23 posted by FoM on September 12, 2008 at 20:38:55 PT
Hope
I like watching the Houston channel because it is local. 
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Comment #22 posted by Hope on September 12, 2008 at 20:25:17 PT
Thanks
Sounds like you're getting more information than I'm getting on local stations.I'll check it out.
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Comment #21 posted by FoM on September 12, 2008 at 20:21:38 PT
Hope
I'm watching CNN and MSNBC and a channel on DirecTV 361 which is non stop coverage on the hurricane from KHOU.com.http://www.khou.com/
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Comment #20 posted by Hope on September 12, 2008 at 20:16:43 PT
FoM
Where are you watching all this? 
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Comment #19 posted by FoM on September 12, 2008 at 20:10:55 PT
fight_4_freedom 
I agree. The only good thing is when the hurricane passes the water will return to the Gulf not like Katrina. There won't be long time flooding but the damage that will be done tonight is going to be high. They mentioned something about a building that houses highly dangerous viruses or biological poisons might be threated but the Texas govenor said they don't have bad things in that center anymore. The news broadcasters looked like they didn't believe what he said. 
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Comment #18 posted by fight_4_freedom on September 12, 2008 at 19:46:41 PT
That is so sad FoM
All we can do at this point is put our collective thoughts and prayers together and send as much positive energy and love to those people as we can. Let's just hope for the best.
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Comment #17 posted by FoM on September 12, 2008 at 19:41:54 PT
 fight_4_freedom 
Gas will go up because of the oil refineries in that area. The temperature of the water contributes to how high the surge will be plus high tide and the location of the storm. I feel sorry for the people who didn't listen and evacuate in the Galveston area. I heard a young mother say that she didn't leave because she had to protect her house and her children. That made no sense to me. I love my home but if I am told to get out I will. Material possessions can be replaced but life can't. I wish them all the best. It's going to be a long night for thousands of people who didn't leave.
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Comment #16 posted by fight_4_freedom on September 12, 2008 at 19:32:08 PT
I heard that because of the hurricane, gas was 
going up big time. So like everyone else in my town, I headed to the gas station. I was in line for about 20-30 minutes. It was absolute craziness. People trying to cut, horns going off. Like the end of the world was coming.lolIt was 3.88 for unleaded when I filled up today, so I'll have to check tomorrow to see how much it increased.What a powerful storm it looks like. I hope it dies down before it does any real damage.
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Comment #15 posted by FoM on September 12, 2008 at 19:17:45 PT
ekim
Thank you for sharing. I didn't see the show. I have been caught up watching the Hurricane. Nature is so powerful and does what it wants. No one can control it. I think that's why hurricane's are interesting to me. Mother Nature is a true free spirit.
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Comment #14 posted by ekim on September 12, 2008 at 18:22:41 PT
tommy ends by shouting obama
the whole place went wild -- first time they have been together in 27 years-- they are going on tour--cheech said the energy issue is what he wants to talk about.chong says that he wants to talk about prison reform.everyone was yelling and clapping with excitement.
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Comment #13 posted by ekim on September 12, 2008 at 18:14:49 PT
cheech and chong on abc now
If you are interested in ethanol for fuel please see David Blume's event page 
http://permaculture.com/eventhttp://permaculture.com/node/568
Sustainable Living & Renewable Energy Roundup - Gardnerville, NV
Submitted by farmerdave on July 17, 2008 - 14:58.
Start: Sep 13 2008 - 12:00pm
Timezone: US/Pacific
Description: 
David will be the keynote presenter at Sustainable Living and Renewable Energy RoundupSeptember 13 & 14, 2008 in Gardnerville, NVhttp://www.cvsustainables.org/ Providing a comprehensive two hour talk on Ethanol production and use 
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Comment #12 posted by Commonsense on September 12, 2008 at 14:54:22 PT
Hope
I like the idea of specialty shops. I don't think it ought to be sold at bars because I don't think using it with alcohol should be encouraged, not that people won't do it anyway. "Coffeeshops" might be a good idea. I don't know how well that would fly in most places at first at least. People will want the crazy pot smokers to stay at home and be hidden from everyone else. Who knows what kind of mischief all these stoned people will get into, jumping off of buildings, having sex in the streets, you know, all the crazy stuff those hopheads do. ;-)
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Comment #11 posted by Hope on September 12, 2008 at 14:17:09 PT
Commonse comment 8
Buying would be the way I would want to go. Knowing what I was getting. Getting it when I wanted it. Trying different strains and stuff. I'd definitely want to consider specialty and micro-grower grown stuff... like good wine.Growing might be fun and it would be nice to have a plant or two.. or three for just the prettiness, balm, and look of it. And maybe to use the leaves even like medicine like we do aloe vera. About children and pets? I keep them from eating my other plants, it's likely I could do the same with a cannabis plant.I like the idea of marijuana stores or cannabis and paraphernalia shops.Selling it in liquor stores would be reasonable... but I do like the idea of shops or stores dedicated to cannabis. "Coffee Shops" of the sort in Amsterdam... or the sort we would have here....would be nice and they would likely do good business, bring in tax money, allow socialization and fun that probably wouldn't cause anyone... especially the police, or neighboring businesses.... especially restaurants and cafes much trouble. Next door to a cookie shop?Anyway. It may have to start smaller than that. Liquor stores with a section for cannabis, and consume it at home.
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Comment #10 posted by Hope on September 12, 2008 at 13:42:16 PT
Commonsense
Egads. I don't ever want to make any beer.
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Comment #9 posted by FoM on September 12, 2008 at 12:08:28 PT
CommonSense
I think you are right. If quality cannabis could be purchased for a low price then it might just work. Just like people have a vegetable garden there will be people that will prefer to try it themselves. As far as variety people could trade different types too.
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Comment #8 posted by Commonsense on September 12, 2008 at 11:50:52 PT
FOM
You don't have to pay taxes on beer you brew yourself, and yes you can share it, but cannot sell it. I believe the federal law says a family can brew up to 200 gallons per year. I know that's the law in my state, and no one is checking to see how much you brew. I don't think most people would grow their own. Most people who smoke don't smoke that much. The government estimates that "current users" smoke an average of about seven grams per month. A similar study was done in the Netherlands where they said that current users smoke an average of ten grams per month. I can recall a time when my roommate and I in college were going through about a quarter a week, sometimes more, but later when it was just me a quarter would last me months. Two or three hits in the evening would do me just fine if it was halfway decent weed, maybe five hits of mediocre Mexican. I know some people smoke ridiculous amounts, but most smoke only as much as they need to reach the desired effect and they don't do it everyday. I think that if people could go to the "pot store" and choose from a wide variety of quality product for a few bucks a gram, they'd just buy it when they wanted it. Why go to all the trouble of growing it, worrying about all the pests and disease and mold and whatnot, having to pick it at just the right time and dry it and cure it just right, when you could just pick up finished product at the store that is probably better than what you could produce at home? And you wouldn't be stuck with a large quantity of the same stuff that you're likely to get tired of. You could get some heavy indica one day and some soaring sativa the next time you buy. Not many people actually brew their own beer. I've done it a couple of times and keep thinking I'll do it again, but buying it is so much easier and you know what you are going to get. You don't have to worry about bad batches, having to clean all the bottles and spend a whole day getting your batch ready to ferment, waiting for fermention and clarification and priming your bottles and waiting for carbonation and aging it enough so that it will have the right smell and taste, and so on. It's more work than you would think, and so is growing pot. Personally, I'd rather just buy it and even though people talk about how it's just a weed that grows anywhere when it comes right down to it most people who try to grow it will do that once or twice maybe and then decide it's too much trouble and it's much better to just buy it and be done with it. I'd like to see it sold in stores, regulated similar to the way alcohol is regulated. I think people should be able to grow their own too, but I doubt many would actually go that route. Look at how many medical marijuana users actually buy it rather than grow it, people are even paying $20 or $30 a grams, which I couldn't imagine ever doing, especially if I could grow my own. I think legal "pot stores" would do booming business and the government could actually "tax the heck" out of it and as long as prices stay at a few dollars a gram, more maybe for "connoisseur" product for people with more money than sense, we wouldn't encourage a black market. Mass production with modern agricultural methods will make production costs drop through the floor. A lot of the things that drive the price up today, like thge risk of being arrested and the government seizing huge quantities of the supply, will go away. There will be a lot of room for taxes and the cost to consumers could still be low enough that it would be hard for clandestine producers to compete. 
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Comment #7 posted by FoM on September 11, 2008 at 21:10:06 PT
Commonsense 
I hope I see the day when Cannabis is treated the way they treat beer that people make at home. I think people who brew their own can share it but I am not sure. Do they pay any tax on home brewing? 
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Comment #6 posted by Commonsense on September 11, 2008 at 12:38:44 PT
Taxes
These tax estimates they are talking about don't include all the income taxes and sales taxes that would be paid on the money made. A legal marijuana industry could employ an awful lot of tax paying Americans. They'll have to pay income taxes on that money and sales taxes when they buy things. 
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Comment #5 posted by HempWorld on September 11, 2008 at 10:41:30 PT
MarijuanaStore.com
http://MarijuanaStore.com
On a mission from God!
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Comment #4 posted by FoM on September 11, 2008 at 07:31:19 PT
rchot 
Marijuana would become very inexpensive like it should be. It's a weed.
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Comment #3 posted by afterburner on September 11, 2008 at 07:27:28 PT
OT: An Interesting Perspective on Money
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Tuesday, September 09, 2008 by: Mike Adams (see all articles by this author).
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http://www.naturalnews.com/024109.html
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Comment #2 posted by rchot on September 11, 2008 at 07:13:43 PT
prices are way too high
i strongly doubt cannabis would still cost $420 to $220 for non-brick/non-seeded. Of course strain, potency and reputation would fetch higher prices, but the main reason why marijuana costs as much as it does is because of its illegality in which growers smugglers suppliers and dealers have to pass onto the consumer. Marijuana take just as much time and care to grow as tomatoes, but you dont see sweet delicious tomatoes going for 200 an ounce. Although marijuana won't be as cheap as tomatoes I doubt most strains would be over 100 an oz. I see it like this wholesale brick/ditch = $15 oz lower potency indicas = $25 oz, mid potency indica/sativa $35-45 oz, high potency inidca/sativa $55-75 oz. now lets add tax 30% and retail 50% markup. brick ditch = $27, low grade = $45 an ounce, midgrade = $63 - $81 an ounce, high grade $99-$135 an ounce. realistically if you don't bring the price down enough to destroy the black market you'll still be wasting money on enforcement. Take cigarettes in nj and ny for example, on 125th street dealers on every corner are selling packs of newports for $5 a box and 35 cent a single and, many people are buying.
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Comment #1 posted by FoM on September 11, 2008 at 06:52:31 PT
Just a Comment
It's been 7 years since we were attacked and yet it seems like a million years ago. I believe in putting seriously bad events behind me so I don't keep looking under rocks for the bad guys and look to the future for change. We have survived all this administration has thrown at us but it was very hard. I feel very sorry for the families who lost loved ones that dreadful day and I hope that someday we won't have to see it replayed every year on the tv news. 
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