cannabisnews.com: The Purple Brain: America's New Reefer Madness










  The Purple Brain: America's New Reefer Madness

Posted by CN Staff on June 23, 2007 at 06:33:36 PT
By Marsha Rosenbaum and Paul Armentano, AlterNet 
Source: AlterNet 

USA -- More than 70 years in the making, the long-awaited sequel to the notorious 1936 film, Reefer Madness has arrived. It's called The Purple Brain, and just like its unintentionally campy predecessor, its purpose is to frighten Americans about marijuana. The particular target audience for the Feds' new production is the millions of parents who may have, without incident, experimented with marijuana in the 1970s, when they were about the same age as their children are today.
The plot is as follows: Sure, the pot you and your 40-something peers once enjoyed may have been innocuous, but that's only because it bears no resemblance to the super-potent weed of today-- strains with such foreboding names as "Train wreck," "AK-47," and "The Purple." As proclaimed by Drug Czar John Walters recently, "[W]e are no longer talking about the drug of the 1960s and 1970s -- this is [in computer parlance] Pot 2.0." To top off this frightening message, unsubstantiated claims of "brain damage" resulting from the use of this super-pot are new buzzwords in today's Prevention circles. If ever there was an attention-getting script for scaring the hell out of parents, this is it. Fortunately, while the headlines are grabbing, the story lacks credibility. Growers in the business of selling marijuana have always attached pet names to selected strains of pot. In the 1970s, popular varieties included "Acapulco Gold" and "Maui Wowie." Today, as in the past, most of these labels are little more than clever marketing gimmicks devised by producers and sellers to distinguish their particular product in a highly competitive marketplace. While a handful of potent strains may be available in limited quantities today, these varieties compose only a minute percentage of the overall marketplace -- at a price tag that is cost-prohibitive to anyone but the most wealthy of aficionados. For others, marijuana remains essentially the same plant it has always been, with its relatively mild rise in average potency akin to the difference between beer and wine. Unlike alcohol -- or even aspirin, -- today's marijuana still poses no risk of fatal overdose, regardless of the strength of its primary psychoactive ingredient, THC. Moreover, cannabis consumers readily distinguish between low and high potency marijuana and moderate their use accordingly. Finally, despite claims that marijuana alters the brain, it is important to note that THC -- regardless of its potency -- is surprisingly non-toxic to the adult as well as the teenage brain. Recently scientists at the Nathan S. Kline Institute for Psychiatric Research reported that they could find "no ... evidence of cerebral atrophy or loss of white matter integrity" attributable to cannabis use in the brains of frequent adolescent marijuana users (compared to non-using controls) after performing MRI scans and other advanced imaging technology. Separate studies assessing the cognitive skills of long-term marijuana smokers have also reported no demonstrable deficits. Of course, marijuana is an intoxicant that should be avoided until and unless an individual has reached an age of mental and physical maturity, and this might be well into his or her twenties. But as we urge adolescents to abstain or at least delay, let's not forget the lessons we've learned after two decades of drug education that has failed to convince students to "just say no." When teens ultimately learn the truth, exaggerated campaigns like "The Purple Brain" do little more than create skepticism about anything adults tell them about drugs, not to mention fueling their natural curiosity. What's really frightening is that when teens realize they've been deceived about marijuana, they tend to disregard warnings about the very real dangers of hard drugs like cocaine and heroin. It's this latter scenario that ultimately trumps The Purple Brain as the real horror show.Marsha Rosenbaum is the Director of the San Francisco office of the Drug Policy Alliance and the author of Safety First: A Reality-Based Approach to Teens and Drugs. Paul Armentano is the Senior Policy Analyst for NORML and the NORML Foundation in Washington, DC.Note: A new film designed to frighten Americans about pot, The Purple Brain, makes absurd and unsubstantiated claims of "brain damage." Source: AlterNet (US)Author: Marsha Rosenbaum and Paul Armentano, AlterNetPublished: June 23, 2007Copyright: 2007 Independent Media InstituteContact: letters alternet.org Website: http://www.alternet.org/DL: http://alternet.org/drugreporter/54977/NORMLhttp://www.norml.org/Drug Policy Alliancehttp://www.drugpolicy.org/CannabisNews -- Cannabis Archiveshttp://cannabisnews.com/news/list/cannabis.shtml

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Comment #216 posted by Hope on June 28, 2007 at 08:38:22 PT

Whig....You made me laugh...
"....unless you want your own underwear to be open for inspection."
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Comment #215 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 20:05:27 PT

OT: Mexico
Something 2 amues...http://tinyurl.com/2amuesMEXICO CITY — Mexico replaced the federal police chiefs from each of the country's 31 states and the Federal District on Monday, pending polygraph and drug tests to determine whether they are on the right side of the law in the nation's foundering drug war.
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Comment #214 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 20:02:05 PT

FoM
Doesn't American politics seem like grade school?
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Comment #213 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 19:32:30 PT

whig
I know what you mean. I too don't have any problems with people's sexuality. It really should be a private issue and that should be the end of it. Society better grow up and see the world as it is not as they want it to be. Live and let live is my belief. 
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Comment #212 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 19:18:27 PT

In a nutshell
I think most hatred stems from self-hatred.
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Comment #211 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 19:12:08 PT

fwiw
I actually know some transgendered people, one a woman who became a man (I have not seen him since the transformation) and one a man who was becoming a woman (likewise).I don't mind what people do, but don't call people names unless you want your own underwear to be open for inspection.
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Comment #210 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 19:07:42 PT

FoM
I don't know but if she's transsexual then that's her choice, but I think someone could reasonably ask her given how she opens the door by calling out other people for supposedly being gay.By the way, here's Wikipedia on David Brock.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brock
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Comment #209 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 19:05:44 PT

whig
I honestly can't figure out her sex. She just looks like a guy. Her adams apple is really big and women don't have that.
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Comment #208 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 19:02:03 PT

FoM
You know there's a chance Ann Coulter is gay. She calls people "faggot" which isn't very nice but people who do that often have their own issues with sexuality.
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Comment #207 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 17:41:11 PT

whig
I don't know anything about him so I looked him up in google. I bet when he came out as Gay the right gave him a bad time and that might have made him become more left leaning.
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Comment #206 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 17:21:29 PT

David Brock
He used to be on the right but then he quit and eventually started Media Matters.
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Comment #205 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 17:18:59 PT

Also
When she switches sides, she shouldn't expect much more than protection. She's got a lot of damage to fix.
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Comment #204 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 17:17:50 PT

FoM
To change she'll have to switch sides or her allies will destroy her.
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Comment #203 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 16:51:09 PT

whig
Yes I know. She wasn't that bad back in 97. She has gotten way worse. I was able to reason with her back then. She must be a very unhappy person.
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Comment #202 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 16:47:47 PT

FoM
It's how she makes a living. She works for hate merchants.
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Comment #201 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 16:45:45 PT

whig
I have talk with Ann years ago. She told me in a private chat where a private message pops up so others can't see what is said that she agreed with me. She private messaged me. I didn't private message her. Somewhere in my guest book years ago she signed a private message and said something similar. I don't know why she picked the course she took. She has really gone off the deep end.
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Comment #200 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 16:43:05 PT

What I would ask Ann Coulter
When's the last time you smoked pot?
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Comment #199 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 16:39:36 PT

Ann Coulter
It's so sad, she's made a living selling hate, and now she doesn't have anything else she can do to defend herself and earn a living without continuing to hate and hate.
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Comment #198 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 14:54:15 PT

Hope
Thank you. I wish I didn't think the way I do sometimes. 
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Comment #197 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 14:44:11 PT

FoM
I fear, my friend, that you are, likely, correct.
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Comment #196 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 13:43:31 PT

Hope
I think people care but we have so many problems here it becomes like a mental overload. I wish they didn't do it but there is no way to stop it because of oil. I do think it is about getting to the oil and I hope I'm wrong.
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Comment #195 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 13:40:11 PT

Trouble is...
This isn't a case of people spraying it on their own property. It's a case of people spraying it indiscriminately, on other perople's plants, animals, children, water supplies, and right down on them and their homes. The sprayers rain it from the skies, and pollute the air and soil while they are killing all the plants and sickening all the other creatures it lands on. I believe a bottle of Roundup warns you about getting it on your body and other things it shouldn't be on. I believe the one's who support the spraying do want to kill and sicken those people. There's an element of genocide, as well as herbicide, involved in that spraying.There is no upside to it...except profits to the corporations and people who invest in them, if you can take that as an upside. I don't. There is no real upside and an awful lot of downside. It's wrong and I can't see why it's not obvious to everyone.
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Comment #194 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 13:29:18 PT

Hope
I remember when I first learned about herbicides being sprayed and it upset me but the more I thought about it the more I began to realize that we sell the same chemicals to people in the states and they have children and pets but that is ok. The problem is that poison is poison and we are doing bad things to our own people too.It always comes back home with me anymore.
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Comment #193 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 12:51:13 PT

Spraying people and their babies with herbicides?
One thing on a very, very, very, hideously long list of why it's wrong not to attempt to rein in the prohibs and those they enable with their prohibiton...like illegal cartels and gangsters.
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Comment #192 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 12:24:42 PT

FoM Comment 187
It never occurred to me...until reading that comment that, perhaps my stomach, maybe more so than my brain, drove me to having to stand up against the prohibs and all their incredibly unjust behavior towards others, and all the hideous consequences and "collateral damage" that their prohibition and war have produced and inflicted on everyone.Spraying people and their babies with herbicides? I just can't let that happen without hating it.
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Comment #191 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 12:15:22 PT

Standing behind her...
include those who would have her back again and again on their shows and newspapers.Totally revolting situation. Those "Followers" she has, are frightening, indeed. They always are. They always have been and they alawys will be. You see it in their eyes. You see it in the hard, self righteous masks they make of their faces. They are haughty, arrogant, condescending, and hateful to others. Their attitudes, seems to me, are often EXCEPTIONALLY materialisticly, and on some level, greed, based. Always.They don't like "sharing". They never did. Even as toddlers, I would imagine. I don't like being cheated or robbed or thieved upon...but a certain amount of sharing seems right, and even necessary.The people who follow her are part of the endless parade through all time and history, it seems, of merciless perpetrators of so much sorrow down through the ages. Again and again. It kind of makes me put some stock in "predistination". Why would anybody be that way...unless they just couldn't help it? It's like they are in a trance of some kind and can't wake up from it. They seem, to me, sometimes, to pursue and cherish evils of different sorts, like hurting and belittleing others, and calling it "Good". They are so bent to that that it looks straight to them.

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Comment #190 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 12:03:34 PT

whig
Thank you. I did see it and I hope that those who don't have MSNBC check out the youtube link. John Edwards is going to be on Hardball today and I will watch it. Politics should be on what a person believes not attacks below the belt. I could have never been involved in politics because it's too dirty. What good comes out it all? Nothing good. 
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Comment #189 posted by whig on June 27, 2007 at 11:53:29 PT

Hardball
Here's the video if anyone's interested in seeing it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amM9CVpdHuw
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Comment #188 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 11:37:03 PT

NYT: 2008: Mrs. Edwards vs. Ann Coulter
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/2008-mrs-edwards-vs-ann-coulter/
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Comment #187 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 11:15:28 PT

Hope
It made me sick to my stomach when I saw it. What really bothered me was young adults or near adults stood behind Ann and never changed their expression. They seemed to love Ann. If that would be the future of our country then God help us all.
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Comment #186 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 11:08:41 PT

Oh my gosh!
That makes me sick to my stomach. Nauseating! Despicable and nauseating.
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Comment #185 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 11:00:45 PT

Hope
Mrs. Edwards called in the ask Ann to stop talking about her dead son and wishing that John Edwards was killed. Mrs. Edwards wanted to talk to Ann so they allowed her to talk to Ann live on TV.
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Comment #184 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 10:54:05 PT

I didn't see the program...
I can only imagine. It's kind of irritating to think that anyone would set Ms. Edwards up with having to speak publicly with Ann Coulter. It wouldn't be good for anyone's health to have to speak with Coulter, even if they agreed with her views and attitudes... but, especially someone as sick as Ms. Edwards is right now. It's bound to weaken her immune system even more.What were they talking about?
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Comment #183 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 10:11:18 PT

Hope
How would we speak to Mrs. Edwards if we had the opportunity like Ann Coulter did live last night on Hardball? I believe it isn't what we put in our bodies that defile us but what comes out of our mouths. I wonder if Ann Coulter, the strong self righteous christian, knows that expression from the Bible?PS: I am not an Edwards supporter but I would ask Elizabeth how she was feeling.PSS: Also if Ann Coulter was in Elizabeth Edwards health position I would ask her how she was feeling. I wish no harm on even my political enemies.
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Comment #182 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 09:58:32 PT

By the way...
Great piece, Marsha and Paul! Thank you!
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Comment #181 posted by Hope on June 27, 2007 at 09:57:16 PT

Fom, Afterburner
FoM, that's a true political joke...in the way that they always forget what we really sent them after, but they say they have it down pat, and that they won't forget.Got your message over there, Afterburner. Thanks.Ann Coulter is a true hate monger, it appears to me. She isn't just expressing ideas. She expresses hatred and tries to cause it to increase...everytime she opens her mouth, it seems. It seems to be her "job" to do everything she can with her rhetoric to increase hatred among us all.
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Comment #180 posted by FoM on June 27, 2007 at 06:22:46 PT

Ann Coulter
Last night we watched Hardball with Chris Matthews. Ann Coulter was the guest and during the program Elizabeth Edwards called in and Coulter and Edwards had a few words between them. Chris Matthews said a couple times that this is really scary and I sure agree. Why do Republicans hate Democrats so much? I don't like what the Republican Party stands for but by darn I won't talk about them like Ann Coulter did. What was really bizarre to me is they had young Republicans applauding her comments. It reminded me of Nazi Germany.
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Comment #179 posted by afterburner on June 26, 2007 at 20:28:44 PT

Hope
Message 4 you ON The Hippies Were Right All Along -- We Knew That
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Comment #178 posted by FoM on June 26, 2007 at 20:03:30 PT

Hope
I read a funny joke that Reagan said. I'll shorten it a little but it was cute.A woman asked her husband to get her some ice cream with chocolate syrup and a cherry and said he better write it down or he'd forget.He said you want ice cream with chocolate syrup and a cherry and said he wouldn't forget.He went out to get it and came back with a paper bag. She opened the bag and there was a ham sandwich in it.She looked at him and said.You forgot the mustard!That wasn't 100% right but it really made me laugh.
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Comment #177 posted by Hope on June 26, 2007 at 19:24:58 PT

Well The Purple Brain or not...
I'd say from this thread, and the many more we've shared, that our brains seems to be working pretty well... probably even better than the average brain of any color.
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Comment #176 posted by FoM on June 26, 2007 at 16:49:09 PT

whig
I don't think about what ifs about God and Churches. That's not something I do.
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Comment #175 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 16:40:46 PT

FoM
Yes, the spiritual and temporal dimensions are different.Should God cause a seed to fall upon the church garden, would it have no right to grow there?
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Comment #174 posted by FoM on June 26, 2007 at 15:44:32 PT

whig
There are different meanings to the word church to me. Where two or more are gathered etc. is one. That's what can happen from time to time here on CNews. That is non denominational. Then we have organized religion that can be called Church like the Roman Catholic Church. Since that is what I am familiar with I'll comment on them. The RCC has rules and they are to be followed. That doesn't mean that people are always kicked out if they don't do what the church says but they have a right to decide their own doctrine. No one has to stay if they don't like it though.My opinion is a true church has no boundaries but is guided by the Spirit. The Spirit of God is always good, kind, forgiving, patient, never looking for it's own glory and loving. It's easy for me to see that in people. 
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Comment #173 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 14:58:49 PT

FoM
Does the church have the authority to prohibit cannabis?
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Comment #172 posted by FoM on June 26, 2007 at 12:05:44 PT

museman
Thank you. I think we gain wisdom that way. Whig, I don't understand churches and cannabis. It was never part of what faith meant to me. Cannabis is one of the plants out of so many helpful plants that God created. That's the only way I can believe. 
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Comment #171 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 12:00:01 PT

Churches can end cannabis prohibition now
Let anyone who comes into your sanctuary partake, and we may travel to any city in the world and be able to receive blessing. There should be no more hiding in shadows.
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Comment #170 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 11:54:54 PT

Something to think about...
There are churches who will begin sprouting cannabis from their own gardens soon.
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Comment #169 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 11:53:13 PT

FoM
I see it this way, people have the right to practice their religion together and if that includes cannabis they shouldn't have to hide in the shadows to practice.
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Comment #168 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 11:51:47 PT

FoM
Here is what I think about the material church.Who does it belong to?Can't we eventually demand they give us physical sanctuary?
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Comment #167 posted by museman on June 26, 2007 at 11:44:32 PT

FoM
"I think we should take the best from the past and use it and what didn't work we should try to discard. Then history won't repeat itself."And you say you don't understand. A pretty good summary!

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Comment #166 posted by FoM on June 26, 2007 at 11:42:54 PT

Whig
Yes we should learn from experience. I love tv programs about ancient archeology. When I see how pyramids were made or even massive tunnels under cities I am amazed at how much we don't know but we think we have arrived at some special place in time that makes our way superior to other's ways. It's all vanity. Sometimes I think we are the feet of the image from the Old Testament that Daniel spoke about. 
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Comment #165 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 11:36:43 PT

Hopi invocation
"You have been telling the people that this is the Eleventh Hour.
Now you must go back and tell the people that this is the Hour.
And there are things to be considered:Where are you living?
What are you doing?
What are your relationships?
Are you in right relation?
Where is your water?
Know your garden.
It is time to speak your Truth.
Create your community.Be good to each other.
And do not look outside yourself for the leader.
This could be a good time!
There is a river flowing now very fast.
It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid.
They will try to hold on to the shore.
They will feel they are being torn apart, and they will suffer greatly.
Know the river has its destination.
The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of
the river, keep our eyes open, and our heads above the water.
See who is in there with you and celebrate.At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally.
Least of all, ourselves.
For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a
halt. The time of the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves!
Banish the word struggle from your attitude and your vocabulary.
All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration.We are the ones we've been waiting for."- The Elders, Oraibi, Arizona Hopi Nation
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Comment #164 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 11:25:18 PT

FoM
You are right, we should understand that what happened in the past was a certain kind of stepping stone to where we are now, and we don't have to build the same things over and over unless they are good and worth preserving.
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Comment #163 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 11:22:41 PT

Taylor121 #159
I think everyone has pain which interferes with their perception of the universe.Cannabis enlightens all who seek enlightenment thereby.
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Comment #162 posted by museman on June 26, 2007 at 11:13:02 PT

taylor
I respectfully acknowlege your right to your own perspective, and thank you for the discussion. We can agree...to disagree on this issue. Agreement is definitely more productive with a common goal such as we have, but dissent, and contrary opinion are necessary I believe to keep the common perspective fresh and moving.peace
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Comment #161 posted by FoM on June 26, 2007 at 11:06:42 PT

Whig
I don't mind but I must say I don't understand a lot of this discussion. I think in simpler ways then most of you here. It is interesting to read and I know others will understand. I think we should take the best from the past and use it and what didn't work we should try to discard. Then history won't repeat itself.
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Comment #160 posted by museman on June 26, 2007 at 10:59:58 PT

whig
"The Most High sanctifies even a filthy vessel, for it may be made clean enough."and who can say the Will of the Most High in judging the works and deeds of a man?The Grace that is extended to us from our source and creator should also be rendered one to another. There is understanding that many tools and aspects of providence are given to all, and that cannabis is a revealed (because the truth was hidden) 'sacrament' and an aid in understanding the Creation, and the Spirit of that Universal wonder that we live in. I could not raise a toast such as "Bong Hits for jesus" for a couple of reasons, but I can "Fill a bowl for the Brethren (my sisteren are my bretheren too)" and send out my prayer for peace and true enlightenment (achieving a 'light' burden) for us all.and inhaling,...
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Comment #159 posted by Taylor121 on June 26, 2007 at 10:52:01 PT

unkat
"Consider this: People who are either in constant pain or suffer from psychological blocks due to depression and/or anxiety disorders experience a form of enlightenment which includes a better understanding of all things when they use cannabis simply because cannabis reduces the pain, depression, and/or anxiety which makes them suffer and causes psychological blocks upon their senses and intelligence."Yes, you make a point, but the blanket statement that was made didn't seem to refer to enlightenment in this sense of the word.
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Comment #158 posted by Taylor121 on June 26, 2007 at 10:49:17 PT

Thanks for the discussion
We are pretty much talking past one another. I mention stats or something, and that is all manipulation by the social elite. Demonstration of this? No. So anything I say is essentially from the controlling class so there is no room for argument. When I say utility, I'm not really talking about what's useful, I'm talking utility in the form of maximizing preferences. As for Locke, the answer is in this thread. I posted what he said later in that very section. But yes, it doesn't matter. Thanks for the discussion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Comment #157 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:48:51 PT

CNews, I mean
This is a passably good church, I'd say.I hope FoM doesn't mind me saying so.
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Comment #156 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:47:49 PT

Right here
This is a sanctuary. No cannabis which comes into this place ever leaves except by being consumed by the participants themselves.
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Comment #155 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:45:33 PT

museman
The Most High sanctifies even a filthy vessel, for it may be made clean enough.
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Comment #154 posted by museman on June 26, 2007 at 10:39:43 PT

whig
"The temple sanctuary has not yet been built, or else I have not yet found this one."Under the dome of the sky, unbound by the sounds an distractions of mans many spinning wheels, the Sacred waits for your embrace.The 'temple' is ourselves. Of course you know this. It is how we bring our own part or 'stone' to the Sacred places undefiled by strife and exploit, and there assemble. Only the Most High can 'sanctify', though we are all invited to make good use of what has been created for us as a foundation incorrupt.And yes, peace.
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Comment #153 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:36:49 PT

Do not worship idols
Christ is not on the cross, Christ is risen.
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Comment #152 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:35:27 PT

Calling all churches
Who will let us bring cannabis into your sanctuary?Anyone?
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Comment #151 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:32:18 PT

inquiry
Will some established church grant us a sanctuary?I'm starting to get ready to expect them to let us walk in their front doors and take down the cross.And what symbol would we replace it with?
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Comment #150 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:29:06 PT

Rules for the temple
Cannabis which comes into the sanctuary is never to leave the sanctuary unless consumed within the sanctuary.The temple sanctuary has not yet been built, or else I have not yet found this one.
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Comment #149 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:24:07 PT

Wherever two or more are gathered
when there is agreement between brothers and sisters, brothers and brothers, sisters and sisters, then there will be peace. There is no war between us.
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Comment #148 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:22:01 PT

Sow your fields, and set aside some harvest
to feed the poor and help the sick.Let this be your tithe as well, and let the church of our own making distribute it to the hungry and needy, and to those who will use it for sacramental purposes reserve also a portion.
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Comment #147 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:19:53 PT

Cannabist government
Should we create our own governing system, and collect a portion of cannabis and cannabis hemp for our taxes?This and a land value tax (and environmental impact taxes, which fall into economic land as Taylor121 will hopefully appreciate) can create two standards of value, two currencies which may compete or cooperate, and what could be more cooperatively joined than land and cannabis?
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Comment #146 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:15:53 PT

Utility
Paper money has no utility except as a medium of exchange. This should defend against hoarding, which is a major defect of metallic currencies, but cannabis meets this need quite as well, and in fact is less likely to be hoarded unless cannabis can be preserved against loss of potency and spoliation.Metallic currencies are dreadful, and always create plutocracy. This is one thing I hold against Ron Paul, though it may be that his opposition to fiat money is stronger than his love of Gold and he might come to support a cannabis-hemp economy.If there is a physical basis underlying the dollar now, it is petroleum. I submit that cannabis hemp is a much preferred basis.
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Comment #145 posted by unkat27 on June 26, 2007 at 10:12:50 PT

Taylor
-- “I don't see what is so enlightening about using cannabis. It's pleasurable, I enjoy it, and I think it should be 100% legal, but you will have to describe what you mean.”Consider this: People who are either in constant pain or suffer from psychological blocks due to depression and/or anxiety disorders experience a form of enlightenment which includes a better understanding of all things when they use cannabis simply because cannabis reduces the pain, depression, and/or anxiety which makes them suffer and causes psychological blocks upon their senses and intelligence.Lots more to say but no time to say it now. Got to get to work. Good discussion. Fat thread!
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Comment #144 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:11:28 PT

Money basis
Paper or plastic?This doesn't work for long.
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Comment #143 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 10:09:39 PT

Money theory
Is there any good reason cannabis could not be a monetary basis?I say it is the best currency. Anyone can grow money on trees, and good money can be easily discerned from bad.
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Comment #142 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 09:41:15 PT

should have quotes
You said, "I don't even like Locke"
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Comment #141 posted by whig on June 26, 2007 at 09:40:49 PT

Taylor121
You said:
 
I don't even like Locke
 
So why should we have an argument about him? A big waste of time if you ask me.I've read Locke's treatises on government. And lots of other things. Don't think you're the only person who has read classical economics here.Adam Smith was not a liberal, either.
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Comment #140 posted by museman on June 26, 2007 at 08:50:29 PT

taylor #104
To respond;“ask the people out of the job why employment is a priority in some of the more socialistic societies in Europe. Yes our economy is more efficient and smooth than MANY countries in the industrialized world. Do we need to do more to redistribute, yes, but let's do it correctly and efficiently. “The bottom line everywhere, is ‘food, shelter, and clothing.’ If the natural resource and bounty of the earth is held in some kind of ‘false trust’ by ‘superior’ minded humans, out of reach, and out of access, and the only way to feed your family is to be a slave, well how else can you make a free man a slave? Either that or by force. Just because a small part of humanity has a strangle hold on our collective resource does not make them right, or even credible.“At least there is a minimum wage. What should be done is you should receive free education and money to live on so there is more social mobility. I have worked mindless jobs as well, so don't act like you're the only one.“Excuse me for using myself as an example, but I assure you there is no ‘act’ involved. -At LEAST there is a minimum wage? So the bone that the rich man throws us should just be accepted gratefully and thankfully? Not on my watch.“It's not all about luck. That is a misconception. Some of it is, but some of it is simply applying an education. I agree there are flaws in capitalism. I think Marx did a good job of spelling out some of the problems with alienation with respect to the laborer and their labor.“Oh please. Luck of course is an arbitrary word, but there is no misconception of “privilege” in how it is applied to control and manipulation of those with ‘lesser’ social rank. Marx just opened the box. “You want to show me some empirical evidence of this working in our society?” The fact that society is in thrall to a system of erroneous weights and measures –false renderings of intrinsic, and inherent value –and has been since the first Kings of Sumeria and Babylon, has a lot to do with the fact that there are few examples. However there are examples. One that comes to mind is the early kibbutz in Israel. That example is by no means perfect, but it does demonstrate how community can work efficiently, effectively, healthily, and without an overlord.“What would capping off wealth do to investment?”Investment? “Interest?” Inflated value injected into an already illusiory system of false, invented value? The terms and conditions of the conquerors and the resultant dominant society do not apply to truth. “Who would provide goods and services?” A farmer grows food. The corporation creates simulacrums of food, produced in large un-ripened, diluted quantities at constantly inflated prices to be distributed with polluting systems of unnecessary and wasteful transport. The farmer is all but wiped out by the corporation. Used to be every community had it’s farms. Gone now. Bought out by the “Lords” of commerce. A farmer understands that my family is hungry, and in a truly humane system –the interaction of barter and trade before American corporate capitalism was a hell of a lot more real and equitable to actual life, than the current top-heavy system.“Are you under the illusion that every rich person is a bad person?”“You will know them by their fruits.”“You might think that, but I have met people that simply do not want to do anything. They exist, and I'm not saying they shouldn't have some compensation to live a decent life. But to say that they should be allowed to obtain the exact same amount of money as the guy who is out there working to better himself and society is a little bit ridiculous to me. The status of personhood alone entails living, it does not entail luxury. “How can anyone claim to know what one has done, is doing, or will do, except by that which is observed? If you or anyone else actually have the time to monitor someone’s activities like that, then I submit that that is a “do-nothing” job if ever there was one. Money, schmoney. Can you eat it? Does it keep you warm? Can it give you shelter from the storm? Sure, because of the extreme efforts of the rich to horde, and otherwise keep people away from their rightful inheritance of the bounty of the earth, ‘money’ is the device we are forced to use as a ‘medium of exchange’. That fact alone is not credibility, it is merely forced compliance. “Better himself?” Better than what? What is the scale of measure that you use to make that assumption, if not the Republican theory of ‘superior class?’ Luxury at the expense of any other soul is theft.“Not all time is of equal value just because achieve the status of personhood. I think it entails the ability to live a decent life, but this certainly isn't intuitive to me what you are saying. I see no reason why one man's time is equal to another's. Under your philosophical assumption, the man that stresses every day to develop a cancer vaccine that would save millions of lives is equal to the man that spends 5 hours a day cleaning bathrooms. You value equality over utility. As I said before, I view things in a more utilitarian manner. “To quantitatively judge the worth of a man’s time one must have some kind of basis of comparison. Since the only comparison you have offered is a narrow scope of social and economic prejudice, your ‘assumption’ comes nowhere close to trumping the truth of the matter. You call it ‘utilitarian’ which is just another word for ‘useful.’ I respect your right to believe whatever you like, but just because you don’t recognize the ‘utility’ of an equal, balanced society whose values are elevated above the dead and inanimate, does not render it invalid. To assume your labors, and time are ‘more important’ than anyone elses, no matter what your ‘skill’ or talent, is just arrogance, pure and simple.“Did you get a college education? If so what in? It really depends on what you study. I studied in Marx in philosophy. I learned about the difference between individualism and communism. The values I learned were extremely liberal values, not conservative.”Depends on what you mean by ‘education.’ Did I attend university? Yes. Do I place any value in it? Not any more than I place value in my own abilities to learn without special dispensations and exclusive circumstance. In my mind “individualism and communism” are two extremes, neither of which comes close to what I believe, though I am often erroneously associated with socialism, because my ‘values’ coincide more to that than propriety and capitalism.“I don't see what is so enlightening about using cannabis. It's pleasurable, I enjoy it, and I think it should be 100% legal, but you will have to describe what you mean.”An old phrase comes to mind; “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.” “You know, if you enjoy your music, just stick with it and make it a personal thing between you and your family. If you can't make the massive record labels, that is no reason to say capitalism is a terrible thing. Does social utility matter to you? What if your plan substantially reduced the quality of life for EVERYONE? Would you still support it?”Once again, excuse me for using myself as an example. I resolved my relationship and disparity with music and the status quo a long time ago. That is between me and my Creator. My “plan” is not “MY” plan. I am not an inventor of the facts and truth. I am quite capable of seeing however, and somewhat able to report my observations coherently. “What if?” Does not concern me. The misguided fears of beliefs that cannot fathom actual value of life and time without using the corrupt weights and measures of Babylon can never experience any alternative, no matter how well or substantially presented, because denial is a deeply rooted aspect of such beliefs. 
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Comment #139 posted by Taylor121 on June 26, 2007 at 04:53:32 PT

whig, more on locke
You accused me of misrepresenting Locke, yet you are the one doing it. I encourage anyone to look around the internet and you will see that Locke is widely known as predicating capitalism and is known along with Adam Smith as one of the ones that paved the way for it. Check out this interpretation from the Stanford philosophical encyclopedia: On Macpherson's interpretation, Locke is thought to have set three restrictions on the accumulation of property in the state of nature: 1) one may only appropriate as much as one can use before it spoils (Two Treatises 2.31), 2) one must leave “enough and as good” for others (the sufficiency restriction) (2.27), and 3) one may (supposedly) only appropriate property through one's own labor (2.27). Macpherson claims that as the argument progresses, each of these restrictions is transcended. The spoilage restriction ceases to be a meaningful restriction with the invention of money because value can be stored in a medium that does not decay (2.46-47). The sufficiency restriction is transcended because the creation of private property so increases productivity that even those who no longer have the opportunity to acquire land will have more opportunity to acquire what is necessary for life (2.37). According to Macpherson's view, the “enough and as good” requirement is itself merely a derivative of a prior principle guaranteeing the opportunity to acquire, through labor, the necessities of life. The third restriction, Macpherson argues, was not one Locke actually held at all.http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke-political/
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Comment #138 posted by Taylor121 on June 26, 2007 at 04:40:00 PT

Whig
Did you read what I posted or not? Locke doesn't believe in hording wealth IF there was no such thing as money. He believes money is a tool that can be used to transfer your labor. Read what I posted.
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Comment #137 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 21:23:56 PT

Taylor121
I have pulled a book off my shelf, Liberalism Proper and Proper Liberalism, by Gottfried Dietze. Copyright 1985. I will excerpt only the first paragraph of the introduction here:"Liberty without restriction--and only unqualified liberty is liberty unqualified--implies the ability to do good or evil. Similarly, unqualified liberalism, or liberalism proper, can result in what is good or bad. Since evil has little appeal, liberals have ordinarily claimed to favor a proper liberalism, as distinguished from liberalism proper. The historical movement known as liberalism, conceived as a polemic against monarchical despotism, began with the Reformation and climaxed in the nineteenth century. Its representatives in different places and times have had different aims. We speak, for instance, of English, French, and German liberalism, of liberalism in the seventeenth century, in the eighteenth. However, they all usually maintained that they favored the proper kind of liberalism. This prompts the question of what liberalism is."Given your philosophic training you should be able to respond.
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Comment #136 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 21:14:06 PT

Taylor121
I said nothing about what universities are teaching.You misconstrue Locke, but you say you don't like him so it is impertinent. You call him a "huge advocate of capitalism" and thereby admit you have no knowledge of liberalism.Only conservative and Marxist claptrap.
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Comment #135 posted by Taylor121 on June 25, 2007 at 20:05:10 PT

Whig; Relevance
They were kind of relevant when you started asserting what universities were teaching. I wanted to see what you studied in order to learn how you got your impression. As for you Locke quote, it really makes me skeptical that you actually read The Second Essay. Sure he starts like that towards the beginning, but Locke is a huge advocate of capitalism. Read on to section 45 of the section "On Property""Sect. 45. Thus labour, in the beginning, gave a right of property, wherever any one was pleased to employ it upon what was common, which remained a long while the far greater part, and is yet more than mankind makes use of. Men, at first, for the most part, contented themselves with what unassisted nature offered to their necessities: and though afterwards, in some parts of the world, (where the increase of people and stock, with the use of money, had made land scarce, and so of some value) the several communities settled the bounds of their distinct territories, and by laws within themselves regulated the properties of the private men of their society, and so, by compact and agreement, settled the property which labour and industry began; and the leagues that have been made between several states and kingdoms, either expresly or tacitly disowning all claim and right to the land in the others possession, have, by common consent, given up their pretences to their natural common right, which originally they had to those countries, and so have, by positive agreement, settled a property amongst themselves, in distinct parts and parcels of the earth; yet there are still great tracts of ground to be found, which (the inhabitants thereof not having joined with the rest of mankind, in the consent of the use of their common money) lie waste, and are more than the people who dwell on it do, or can make use of, and so still lie in common; tho' this can scarce happen amongst that part of mankind that have consented to the use of money.Sect. 46. The greatest part of things really useful to the life of man, and such as the necessity of subsisting made the first commoners of the world look after, as it cloth the Americans now, are generally things of short duration; such as, if they are not consumed by use, will decay and perish of themselves: gold, silver and diamonds, are things that fancy or agreement hath put the value on, more than real use, and the necessary support of life. Now of those good things which nature hath provided in common, every one had a right (as hath been said) to as much as he could use, and property in all that he could effect with his labour; all that his industry could extend to, to alter from the state nature had put it in, was his. He that gathered a hundred bushels of acorns or apples, had thereby a property in them, they were his goods as soon as gathered. He was only to look, that he used them before they spoiled, else he took more than his share, and robbed others. And indeed it was a foolish thing, as well as dishonest, to hoard up more than he could make use of. If he gave away a part to any body else, so that it perished not uselesly in his possession, these he also made use of. And if he also bartered away plums, that would have rotted in a week, for nuts that would last good for his eating a whole year, he did no injury; he wasted not the common stock; destroyed no part of the portion of goods that belonged to others, so long as nothing perished uselesly in his hands. Again, if he would give his nuts for a piece of metal, pleased with its colour; or exchange his sheep for shells, or wool for a sparkling pebble or a diamond, and keep those by him all his life he invaded not the right of others, he might heap up as much of these durable things as he pleased; the exceeding of the bounds of his just property not lying in the largeness of his possession, but the perishing of any thing uselesly in it.Sect. 47. And thus came in the use of money, some lasting thing that men might keep without spoiling, and that by mutual consent men would take in exchange for the truly useful, but perishable supports of life"I don't even like Locke so I don't understand what your point was. You took that quote way out of context as the section on money clearly states.
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Comment #134 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 19:36:50 PT

Taylor121
John Locke wrote this:

  The same law of nature, that does by this means give us property, does also bound that property.... As much as anyone can make use of to any advantage of life before it spoils, so much he may by his labor fix a property in: whatever is beyond this is more than his share, and belongs to others. Nothing was made by God for man to spoil or destroy. 

How do you respond?
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Comment #133 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 19:31:04 PT

Taylor121
No offense, bro, but my educational credentials aren't relevant and I don't care to present my resume.
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Comment #132 posted by Taylor121 on June 25, 2007 at 18:53:47 PT

whig
I was a philosophy major. I studied Marx, I also studied Locke, Mill, etc... We didn't even cover egoism in ethics if that means something. Anyways, you didn't respond to any of my questions bro.
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Comment #131 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 17:12:49 PT

Taylor121
You wrote:
Did you get a college education? If so what in? It really depends on what you study. I studied in Marx in philosophy. I learned about the difference between individualism and communism. The values I learned were extremely liberal values, not conservative.
What liberal values did you learn, or do you just mean you had a "liberal" education which consisted of both capitalists and Marxists but no actual liberals?
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Comment #130 posted by Taylor121 on June 25, 2007 at 16:57:22 PT

When did I say Marx was a liberal?
"Marx was not a liberal.Please repeat 3x."Show me where I said that. I said I agree with some of Marx criticism of capitalism. If you understood Marx, you would understand that capitalism is a necessary step to achieve equality. There were conditions he laid out in order to achieve this. Don't insult me like that please. Thanks.
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Comment #129 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 16:48:38 PT

Whig
I understand what you mean now.
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Comment #128 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 16:43:09 PT

whig
We have a couple of 5 acre tracts that have nothing on them. We pay taxes but not much on the empty land but the land that has a house on it the taxes are way more and I understand that.
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Comment #127 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 16:41:07 PT

FoM
The federal government does not tax land value. No one pays a land value tax to the federal government.
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Comment #126 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 16:39:02 PT

whig
Since I don't understand how anyone that owns land can get by without paying taxes I don't know what to say. If people own land and aren't paying taxes that is surprising.
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Comment #125 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 16:36:28 PT

Land value = not the value of the improvements
So if you build something, you shouldn't be punished except that if you impact the environment you should pay for that.
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Comment #124 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 16:35:32 PT

FoM
If you've put a house or something on your land you should be allowed to exclude that value, is that what you mean?
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Comment #123 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 16:28:07 PT

FoM
All land. All of it. I don't see why any should be excluded beyond a personal allowance.
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Comment #122 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 16:21:41 PT

whig
Thanks for trying to explain it to me but I don't understand what you mean. All land that people have labored and bought pay taxes if there is a home on it or just bare land.
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Comment #121 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 16:08:35 PT

FoM
All land value in the states and federal territories.
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Comment #120 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 15:56:16 PT

whig
Are you talking about federal land not private home land?
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Comment #119 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:54:21 PT

FoM
The federal government does not tax land at all.
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Comment #118 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 15:53:10 PT

whig
How can a person own land and not pay taxes? They can seize your home if you don't pay the taxes.
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Comment #117 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:49:40 PT

Personal land value allowance
This is something that could make it possible for small landowners to avoid being made to pay a tax they cannot afford.
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Comment #116 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:45:32 PT

Wealth vs Income
Taxing income requires people to make confessions against themselves. This has to stop.Wealth taxes would be problematic for the same reason if we required disclosure of all things of value, and much that is impossible to appraise. What value to place on a Picasso?Land value is appraisable from public records.
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Comment #115 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:43:24 PT

Wealth concentration
There are a small number of families who own most of the land.They don't pay taxes.They don't need income.
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Comment #114 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 15:40:10 PT

whig
We pay and I understand that. It's worth it to live in the country and have a little space. I found this about income equality but I don't understand how to read it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
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Comment #113 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:37:13 PT

FoM
Not everybody has any land at all.The earth belongs to us all in common.Each of us should be able to use our portion to labor and live on, without distress.Those who hold title to more than their share of the commons, and so displace those who need a place merely to live and exist, ought to pay something.
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Comment #112 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 15:34:05 PT

whig
They already tax our land. What do you mean? We just paid our taxes and it's hard to come up with a lot of money to pay them but we do.
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Comment #111 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:29:47 PT

Tax land value
Forget about equalizing income per se, understand the basis of privilege.
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Comment #110 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:28:01 PT

Taylor121
Marx was not a liberal.Please repeat 3x.
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Comment #109 posted by Taylor121 on June 25, 2007 at 15:24:48 PT

FoM
I never said I didn't support universal health care. What bothers me is when some think it would be a wise idea to equalize all income. 
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Comment #108 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:20:45 PT

Afghani strain
Maybe that's why the gov't seems upset?
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Comment #107 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:19:51 PT

Hope
Purps are pretty common out here, it's just another strain or hybrid of cannabis which has some purple coloration to it. Purple Kush, I think is the parent strain.The ones I've tried have been pretty tasty, more heavy effect (what they call indica out here, though I'm not sure if that's generally accepted or technically correct term, the terminology seems to keep changing).
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Comment #106 posted by whig on June 25, 2007 at 15:05:53 PT

Museman
"And what about this 'education?' Where are the schools and universities that teach us how to live in peace with each other? Where are the ones that teach community, instead of erroneous individualism?"Right here, and Amen brother.
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Comment #105 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 15:03:32 PT

Taylor121
I don't know anything about other countries. I just think about our country as far as where we are now. I don't know why France is having trouble or what could be causing it. I know one thing with a global economy wages are stagnant and soon people here in the USA will be making close to the amount of money that other poorer countries pay their employees if we keeps going the way we are.A Guide To Healthcare in Francehttp://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=29&story_id=4923
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Comment #104 posted by Taylor121 on June 25, 2007 at 14:53:03 PT

museman
"And the economy is moving along at a smooth and efficient rate? Has it ever? The idea that 'employment' is some kind of human priority is just exactly the kind of thing that supports the propaganda and BS of capitalism, which contrary to indoctrination and programming, is a pyramid scheme which truly benefits only the ones with the capital- on top of the pyramid."Ask the people out of the job why employment is a priority in some of the more socialistic societies in Europe. Yes our economy is more efficient and smooth than MANY countries in the industrialized world. Do we need to do more to redistribute, yes, but let's do it correctly and efficiently. "What if I don't want to work for you? What if the only 'job' I can get is contributing to the destruction of the bioshpere? (last time I looked there are few that aren't) What if I'm an artist that doesn't follow the party line? What 'job' are the arbitrators of my fate going to assign me? No need to answer, I already know. My body is twisted, my hands damaged from having to be the slave of the fortunate, and my music relatively unheard because I had to keep something free from the taint of this corrupt system. Yeah, I don't write pretty songs, never got close to 'industry acceptabiltity' so does that mean I should be a farm-worker or a ditch digger? Oh I was. I have held over 40 types of jobs from the ground up, all mindless, boring, destructive, and wasteful. But I should be happy to get the opportunity to break my body for minimum wage?"At least there is a minimum wage. What should be done is you should receive free education and money to live on so there is more social mobility. I have worked mindless jobs as well, so don't act like you're the only one.""Even in the Land of Milk and Honey, someone has to milk the cows and tend the bees." But who decides that? Some pyramid sitter with better luck? Some banker? Some aristocratic fop? No I would think the ones who like working with the cows and bees would be the ones to decide. How many decisions are made by the rich, for the poor wihtout any clues? Like Marie Antoinetes famous misquote "Let them eat cake" who is going to tell me or my children that their hard labor is not worth the 'work' that the rich man's money does all on it's own without a dirty nail in the house?"It's not all about luck. That is a misconception. Some of it is, but some of it is simply applying an education. I agree there are flaws in capitalism. I think Marx did a good job of spelling out some of the problems with alienation with respect to the laborer and their labor. "In a truly human community, every talent and skill would be teated as equal and valued, and there is a place for them all. The quantitative devaluing of human time and energy by creating false elevations of persons, whose 'labor' amounts to spending minutes delegating tasks for their 'employees' is why so many people not in the club of wealth and property have embraced socialism as a viable alternative to the imbalance. It is the ones who sit in judgement and comfort 'above' the rest of us that need to get 'employed.' It is their values of dead things and inanimate object worship that needs to get real, not the struggles of their forced laborers."You want to show me some empirical evidence of this working in our society? What would capping off wealth do to investment? Who would provide goods and services? Are you under the illusion that every rich person is a bad person?"Everyone has a built in need to do, to create, to move things around, to sow, and harvest, and reap. For anyone to make the assumption that I (or anyone else) is 'lazy' because we don't want to do a crappy 'job' while the rich drive by in their gas monsters and get to do everything that most don't even get a close look at (except on TV)- that is not only absurd, but criminal."You might think that, but I have met people that simply do not want to do anything. They exist, and I'm not saying they shouldn't have some compensation to live a decent life. But to say that they should be allowed to obtain the exact same amount of money as the guy who is out there working to better himself and society is a little bit ridiculous to me. The status of personhood alone entails living, it does not entail luxury. "Yes, there should be a 'balance' but there can be none when some few believe that their time is more important or more 'valued' than anyone elses. Here is a truth, one that a comfortably rich man will deny, but the working man will see clearly; "No man's time is worth more than any other mans' time." To set oneself above or on a 'higher' level of value is error and sin, it is pride and vanity and nothing else."Not all time is of equal value just because achieve the status of personhood. I think it entails the ability to live a decent life, but this certainly isn't intuitive to me what you are saying. I see no reason why one man's time is equal to another's. Under your philosophical assumption, the man that stresses every day to develop a cancer vaccine that would save millions of lives is equal to the man that spends 5 hours a day cleaning bathrooms. You value equality over utility. As I said before, I view things in a more utilitarian manner."And what about this 'education?' Where are the schools and universities that teach us how to live in peace with each other? Where are the ones that teach community, instead of erroneous individualism? They are all about the 'job.' "Job skills." "Career choices." The values taught in our schools are all about the pretense of clothing the naked emperor, and little else."Did you get a college education? If so what in? It really depends on what you study. I studied in Marx in philosophy. I learned about the difference between individualism and communism. The values I learned were extremely liberal values, not conservative."We have prohibition because of the decisions of an elite group of rich people, who were/are afraid that the veil of deception that they have so carefully and craftily devised would fail to obscure the truth, if too many become enlightened through proper use of cannabis. They can take the ideas of the capitalistic corporate fuedalisms and apply false logic like "If the young men start smoking marijuana, they will 'get lazy' and not want to 'work.' More important they won't want to go to war when we want them to.""I don't see what is so enlightening about using cannabis. It's pleasurable, I enjoy it, and I think it should be 100% legal, but you will have to describe what you mean. "No one should have to have their lives dictated to them just because of circumstance. A musician should not have to spend their creativity at labors that destroy their health and well-being. A poor man should not have to labor for substantially less compensation that the fat-cat who set up the job, why is the time of a poor man less equal than that of a rich man? Because the rich man perpetuates his rule through force of arms, and succeeding programming of each and every generation to follow the status quo without question."You know, if you enjoy your music, just stick with it and make it a personal thing between you and your family. If you can't make the massive record labels, that is no reason to say capitalism is a terrible thing. Does social utility matter to you? What if your plan substantially reduced the quality of life for EVERYONE? Would you still support it?

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Comment #103 posted by Taylor121 on June 25, 2007 at 14:33:11 PT

FoM
"I Say: No matter how mentally ill or ill or just a victim of circumstance we need to take care of them. These people are the ones that are called the least of the brethren and we must help them."Agreed the mentally ill or ill should be taken care of, plus the elderly. There should be a moderate amount of redistribution. There should not be laws like France though that saps the economy and increases unemployment to the point of riots.
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Comment #102 posted by Hope on June 25, 2007 at 12:43:57 PT

Josephlacerenza
Excellent rebuttal and True, with a capital T. Excellent.
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Comment #101 posted by Hope on June 25, 2007 at 12:42:02 PT

"The Purple" ?
I don't think I hear much of such stuff...but I've never heard that as a name for a strain of cannabis before.The Purple?
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Comment #99 posted by josephlacerenza on June 25, 2007 at 12:38:50 PT:

Medulla oblongata, Hey Water Boy!!!
One piece of knowledge not mentioned by the ones who persecute cannabis/THC as some killer drug is that unlike opiates, nicotine, alcohol, and many other drugs that are used medicinally and recreationally, they all affect the medulla oblongata. This portion of the brain regulates the respiration, blood pressure, and heart rate to name a few. Cannabinoid receptors are not found in this portion of the brain. So, in short, that is why there is no chance of an accidental overdose related THC, no matter its concentration. It takes just 60 milligrams of nicotine at once to kill a human, and we have all heard of college students dieing from alcohol poisoning. 
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Comment #98 posted by museman on June 25, 2007 at 11:23:18 PT

Hope
May we never lose it.
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Comment #97 posted by Hope on June 25, 2007 at 11:14:20 PT

If we fail...
If even faith, hope, hard work, and endurance don't get us over the mountain we face... if we die on the way...at least we had hope and it helped us move. That's kind of how I see it. 
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Comment #96 posted by Hope on June 25, 2007 at 11:08:22 PT

At the most miserable times in my life
I found myself asking God for hope.Just hope. Any. So that I could go on.In misery...being, sort of free, yet without hope for something better to keep my eyes on...I couldn't go on. Misery has a way of congealing around a person and preventing them from fighting it off.Hope can give you that tiny bit of strength to at least kick against the misery.Hope is believing in something better and it gives me strength to keep trudging on.
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Comment #95 posted by museman on June 25, 2007 at 10:37:46 PT

Hope
Freedom - by meIn the mornin' light we could hear the bombs fall,And I wondered why freedom must die.Freedom, we're not lookin for hopeWe're lookin' for freedom just to live our lives.Freedom, don't want no blood for money or money for blood,Freedom, don't you realize.How it all came down will we all remember?Got to know now, simply is no more time,And I wondered why freedom must die.Freedom, we're not lookin' for hope we're talkin' 'bout freedom.Got to make a stand.Freedom, from the governments doin' undercoverWhat the people don't discover.Freedom, just to save the land.Freedom, don't want no blood for money or money for blood,Freedom, don't you understand?Here we go again, something innocents can die for,We could never win, just keep on fightin' the war.And I wondered why freedom must die.Freedom, don't want no blood for money or oil for blood,Freedom, open up your eyes.Freedom, from the power hungry, killin' life, destroyin' our planet,Freedom, don't you realize?Freedom, ...we're not lookin' for hope we're talkin' 'bout freedomJust to live our lives.FreedomHope is a great gift, but at some point that which is hoped for must have some possibility of being delivered, or it is just a word judiciously used by the upholders of the status quo as an excuse to keep everything in 'future possibilty' context, without accepting the responsibilty to bring it into the now. But don't think I disagree.
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Comment #94 posted by museman on June 25, 2007 at 10:18:57 PT

spelling correction of one important word...
"What 'job' are the arbitrators of my fate going to assign me?" That should have been 'arbiters' Sorry for the flow interupt.
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Comment #93 posted by Hope on June 25, 2007 at 10:16:02 PT

Helping each other
Maybe, with better schools, nutrition, child care, housing, and medical care, everyone could do better. There is a devastating lack of hope in poverty.Less prison and more schools and hospitals, clinics, and some hope.
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Comment #92 posted by unkat27 on June 25, 2007 at 10:11:59 PT

Museman, #90
Amen, brother.
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Comment #91 posted by unkat27 on June 25, 2007 at 10:04:51 PT

Taylor, #88
-- " I don't believe in 100% capitalism nor do I believe in 100% socialistic equality. There should be a balance."Yes, a balance. That's generally what democratic socialists agree upon. Personally, I'm one of those that also believe that a ceiling should be set on how much wealth an individual can accumulate. Somewhere between $100,000 and $10 million sounds about right, I dunno exactly, I'm no economist. I just think when somebody starts playing with millions like most of us play with 20s and 100s then they're becoming a bit too spoiled and losing touch with reality, at the expense of the common. If somebody can't be happy with a million dollars i think they're bad for us all.
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Comment #90 posted by museman on June 25, 2007 at 09:53:07 PT

a couple of points
"If you are talking about equalizing all income, then yes I do oppose such a program, not because I want horde wealth, but because I believe it will stagnate the economy and cause a large increase in unemployment."And the economy is moving along at a smooth and efficient rate? Has it ever? The idea that 'employment' is some kind of human priority is just exactly the kind of thing that supports the propaganda and BS of capitalism, which contrary to indoctrination and programming, is a pyramid scheme which truly benefits only the ones with the capital- on top of the pyramid. What if I don't want to work for you? What if the only 
'job' I can get is contributing to the destruction of the bioshpere? (last time I looked there are few that aren't) What if I'm an artist that doesn't follow the party line? What 'job' are the arbitrators of my fate going to assign me? No need to answer, I already know. My body is twisted, my hands damaged from having to be the slave of the fortunate, and my music relatively unheard because I had to keep something free from the taint of this corrupt system. Yeah, I don't write pretty songs, never got close to 'industry acceptabiltity' so does that mean I should be a farm-worker or a ditch digger? Oh I was. I have held over 40 types of jobs from the ground up, all mindless, boring, destructive, and wasteful. But I should be happy to get the opportunity to break my body for minimum wage? "Even in the Land of Milk and Honey, someone has to milk the cows and tend the bees." But who decides that? Some pyramid sitter with better luck? Some banker? Some aristocratic fop? No I would think the ones who like working with the cows and bees would be the ones to decide. How many decisions are made by the rich, for the poor wihtout any clues? Like Marie Antoinetes famous misquote "Let them eat cake" who is going to tell me or my children that their hard labor is not worth the 'work' that the rich man's money does all on it's own without a dirty nail in the house?In a truly human community, every talent and skill would be teated as equal and valued, and there is a place for them all. The quantitative devaluing of human time and energy by creating false elevations of persons, whose 'labor' amounts to spending minutes delegating tasks for their 'employees' is why so many people not in the club of wealth and property have embraced socialism as a viable alternative to the imbalance. It is the ones who sit in judgement and comfort 'above' the rest of us that need to get 'employed.' It is their values of dead things and inanimate object worship that needs to get real, not the struggles of their forced laborers.Everyone has a built in need to do, to create, to move things around, to sow, and harvest, and reap. For anyone to make the assumption that I (or anyone else) is 'lazy' because we don't want to do a crappy 'job' while the rich drive by in their gas monsters and get to do everything that most don't even get a close look at (except on TV)- that is not only absurd, but criminal."There should be a balance. The people that slip through the cracks should be accommodated and taken care of. We shouldn't allow them to starve or die if they are making an effort. Everyone should have access to education, and if they qualify higher education, should have access."Yes, there should be a 'balance' but there can be none when some few believe that their time is more important or more 'valued' than anyone elses. Here is a truth, one that a comfortably rich man will deny, but the working man will see clearly; "No man's time is worth more than any other mans' time." To set oneself above or on a 'higher' level of value is error and sin, it is pride and vanity and nothing else.And what about this 'education?' Where are the schools and universities that teach us how to live in peace with each other? Where are the ones that teach community, instead of erroneous individualism? They are all about the 'job.' "Job skills." "Career choices." The values taught in our schools are all about the pretense of clothing the naked emperor, and little else.We have prohibition because of the decisions of an elite group of rich people, who were/are afraid that the veil of deception that they have so carefully and craftily devised would fail to obscure the truth, if too many become enlightened through proper use of cannabis. They can take the ideas of the capitalistic corporate fuedalisms and apply false logic like "If the young men start smoking marijuana, they will 'get lazy' and not want to 'work.' More important they won't want to go to war when we want them to."No one should have to have their lives dictated to them just because of circumstance. A musician should not have to spend their creativity at labors that destroy their health and well-being. A poor man should not have to labor for substantially less compensation that the fat-cat who set up the job, why is the time of a poor man less equal than that of a rich man? Because the rich man perpetuates his rule through force of arms, and succeeding programming of each and every generation to follow the status quo without question."Tax the rich to feed the poor, until there are no rich no more."

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Comment #89 posted by FoM on June 25, 2007 at 07:16:09 PT

Taylor121
You said: We shouldn't allow them to starve or die if they are making an effort.I Say: No matter how mentally ill or ill or just a victim of circumstance we need to take care of them. These people are the ones that are called the least of the brethren and we must help them.As far as 1 in 10 Republicans supporting marijuana reform that sure isn't many. If 40% supported marijuana reform then I would at least listen to a Republican. I don't think they have left the 50s way of thinking though. Maybe in 20 years or so when young republicans get in power and these older ones are retired things in that party might change. That's a battle for the future.The rich get wealthy because they have workers who make the company work. The company itself is nothing without people making it happen. 
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Comment #88 posted by Taylor121 on June 25, 2007 at 05:54:18 PT

FoM still OT
"What you said sounds very intelligent but I don't understand what you mean. Free Market talk I don't understand. I believe that people should be able to follow their dream and if they achive they achieve but many people slip thru the cracks. We aren't simply one way or the other. Life is complex and if life is complex how can we solve the problems we have by an either or solution? Who should watch those who might be getting too wealthy at the expense of all of us I wonder?"All I'm saying is 1 out of 10 Republicans actually support legalizing marijuana and we should welcome them on board the marijuana movement. I agree 100% with what you are saying. I don't believe in 100% capitalism nor do I believe in 100% socialistic equality. There should be a balance. The people that slip through the cracks should be accommodated and taken care of. We shouldn't allow them to starve or die if they are making an effort. Everyone should have access to education, and if they qualify higher education, should have access. If the rich are getting too wealthy, then tax them more, but don't tax them 100% because they might use some of that money to create jobs. See what I mean? Unemployment is a bad thing for the poor. Just something to consider. Look at France and their problems with unemployment. 
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Comment #87 posted by afterburner on June 24, 2007 at 22:52:41 PT

Can Needed High School Values Survive Drug War?
Teaching values for our new century: Educators should instil attitudes of tolerance, involvement in society, lifelong learning and spirituality by 
Bernard Baskin, 2007/06/23 (Jun 23, 2007) - "The season of "Diplomacy" -- when cherished diplomas are presented to eager high school graduates -- is an opportune time to ask a significant question: What values or attitudes should secondary schools teach or stress in the 21st century?" more... http://www.thespec.com/article/211025Interestingly, these proposed values to be taught (tolerance, involvement in society, lifelong learning and spirituality) are all enhanced by cannabis as we have discussed here in the past. Yet, as the following articles demonstrate, not only do schools tend to oppose the use of THC cannabis, but they react against the mere mention of it with a vigor more appropriate to school shootings. Furthermore, they seem to oppose the very values Rabbi Baskin proposes. Rabbi means teacher, but also indicates a spiritual leader of the flock or tribe (for those not versed in Judaism).Canada: Challenging Authority: Fact Checking the Teacher, Globe and Mail, (22 Jun 2007) 
http://www.mapinc.org/newstcl/v07/n747/a10.html?176Canada: Editorial: Marijuana and the Spirit of Inquiry, Globe and Mail, (23 Jun 2007)
http://www.mapinc.org/newstcl/v07/n747/a04.html?176
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Comment #86 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 20:23:39 PT

When the French lost their yeast bread...
What did Mary Antoinette say? Let them eat "cake" -- meaning unleavened white bread. What you call Wonder Bread.
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Comment #85 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 20:22:42 PT

Taylor121
What you said sounds very intelligent but I don't understand what you mean. Free Market talk I don't understand. I believe that people should be able to follow their dream and if they achive they achieve but many people slip thru the cracks. We aren't simply one way or the other. Life is complex and if life is complex how can we solve the problems we have by an either or solution? Who should watch those who might be getting too wealthy at the expense of all of us I wonder?
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Comment #84 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 20:14:55 PT

Hope #76
Don't be shocked. If you don't eat living food (bread, cheese, wine, yogurt) you have to rely upon chemical substitutes. That's the American experiment. American (white) bread, American cheese, yuck indeed. Made of petroleum, probably. 
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Comment #83 posted by Taylor121 on June 24, 2007 at 19:21:42 PT

things to consider
"When somebody starts calling Michael Moore's work propaganda, the first thing that comes to mind is the so-called "democratic capitalists" that oppose socialism. Such capitalists are mainly opposed to socialism and socialist organizations because they threaten to take their wealth away, as well as the right to horde enormous amounts of wealth, the way multi-millionaires and billionaires do.As far as I am concerned, anyone that calls Michael Moore's work propaganda is nothing more than a greedy, money-hording capitalist that has no qualms about hording millions while people starve and kill each other for resources. However, in light of this new info provided by Taylor and Hope, I am willing to consider other possibilities."When you say socialism, it really depends on what you mean. If you are talking about equalizing all income, then yes I do oppose such a program, not because I want horde wealth, but because I believe it will stagnate the economy and cause a large increase in unemployment. Yes, wealth should be redistributed in a moderate fashion, but there should be at least some incentive besides peer pressure to increase efficiency and growth. So while socialists will elevate the principle of equality of all persons to the highest fundamental level, I elevate utility, or the concept of maximizing preferences of everyone in society rather than equalizing them. This is a more liberal attitude rather than a socialist one, but it takes socialistic programs and applies them to achieve the goal.Also one other thing just real briefly to consider. There ARE free market economists that believe the drug war is wrong. We should all be careful when it comes to the possibility of alienating these people from an important cause, legalizing marijuana. 
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Comment #82 posted by RevRayGreen on June 24, 2007 at 19:13:12 PT

edit-wouldn't be focused
on the whole war on drugs, only on the war on the medi-chronic....carry on..........
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Comment #81 posted by RevRayGreen on June 24, 2007 at 19:09:07 PT

My thought on a Michael Moore
next's movie would be focused on the whole War on Drugs spectrum, it would be about the War on Medical Marijuana Patients, using his hometown Flint MI and the passing of a medi-chronic measure there.
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Comment #80 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 18:52:56 PT

Choosing
There are lots of things pressing society right now that involve unnecessary suffering and death. The right to live and live in health, even of the unwealthy and the uninsured is so important. Humanity has to mean more than it appears to mean right now.
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Comment #79 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 18:49:51 PT

Admitting something else...
I was a bit disappointed that Moore didn't make the War on Drugs his next subject, but he had to make a choice and he chose something that is pressing and important to society right now, too.
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Comment #78 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 18:46:56 PT

Actually, under the circumstances...
perhaps another meaning should be added to the meanings for propaganda in the dictionary.It happens all the time.
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Comment #77 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 18:44:41 PT

Comment 70 Unkat 27
"As far as I am concerned, anyone that calls Michael Moore's work propaganda is nothing more than a greedy, money-hording capitalist that has no qualms about hording millions while people starve and kill each other for resources."It really does tend to sound that way. If you don't think carefully about who is talking and how they are trying to say it and keep in mind what you already know about them.I'm the queen of jumping to conclusions. It's been my tendency since early on...therefore, I've learned to fight it, usually. Fighting long held or natural tendencies can be tricky... not to mention, slow and tedious. "Why not jump?", usually seemed like the best idea...at the time.
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Comment #76 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 18:33:34 PT

Whig Comment 69
Eeeeeewwwww!!!
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Comment #75 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 18:28:58 PT

Whig Comment 68
No. I get auras like blinding sparklers and partial blindness.Music, heh? That's wierd. We are amazingly strange, complex beings.
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Comment #74 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 17:45:57 PT

whig
I agree with you. In a 2 hour or so movie concentration on the message can get lost if too much is put into it. Michael Moore's movies always moved along quite well for me and made the point. 
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Comment #73 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 17:41:44 PT

FoM
I didn't mean to say I was disappointed by that, he couldn't have gotten his message out on this one and that at the same time.It takes time to teach people, and the American public is not very well educated about some things.
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Comment #72 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 17:34:23 PT

whig
I didn't think he would mention cannabis because Sicko seems to be about health care or lack of good coverage more then anything but you saw it and I haven't yet. It's hard to think outside what you are doing when making a movie I would think. Maybe he will do something in the future about the drug war. 
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Comment #71 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 17:30:34 PT

Michael Moore
I think he can make mistakes, everyone can.I think he is honest.He is telling the truth, but he is not telling everything. He does not talk about cannabis.But it's a trade-off, because he needs syndication to get his movie to people, most people don't have the ability or knowledge to download films yet nor do such films have the same "credibility" necessary to catapult the TRUTH to the American people.
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Comment #70 posted by unkat27 on June 24, 2007 at 17:24:44 PT

Hope, #56
-- "But that's how the word became popularized...in warning us about all that dire "Propaganda used by the Communist governments"."Yes, that's how it was when I was in high school in the 70s. When I was in high school in the 70s, I was taught that totalitarian governments used "propaganda" to control the information that the public received and to maintain their support for their government and leaders. I was told from this context that propaganda was not true, that it was mainly deceptive misinformation designed to keep people in the dark about any political opposition towards its government.Later, I learned that any military, including the US military, used propaganda during war-times to maintain and gain support from the public for its side. I didn't realize, however, that any war-effort a government maintains, including the never-ending war on drugs, included the use of propaganda.In any case, I have always been given the impression that propaganda was mostly BS, exaggeration, fear-mongering, scare-tactics, and lies. When somebody starts calling Michael Moore's work propaganda, the first thing that comes to mind is the so-called "democratic capitalists" that oppose socialism. Such capitalists are mainly opposed to socialism and socialist organizations because they threaten to take their wealth away, as well as the right to horde enormous amounts of wealth, the way multi-millionaires and billionaires do.As far as I am concerned, anyone that calls Michael Moore's work propaganda is nothing more than a greedy, money-hording capitalist that has no qualms about hording millions while people starve and kill each other for resources. However, in light of this new info provided by Taylor and Hope, I am willing to consider other possibilities.But i really can't ignore the fact that many people, including political leaders in our own government, still think of propaganda in negative terms, which suggests that they know that it implies intentional lies and deception. It is my conclusion that most people mistrust any information which has been labeled "propaganda" and that is why the right-wingers apply the word to anything that they don't agree with.
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Comment #69 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 17:22:35 PT

In this case...
The mold in the cheese or wine is a living entity.Most people do not understand this.
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Comment #68 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 17:21:31 PT

Hope
Do you hear music or anything when you have a migraine?I would have the most beautiful, complex music...
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Comment #67 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 17:12:32 PT

I can see it through the aura...
Aged sharp cheddar cheese.That's the first time I've ever noticed this happen. Within seconds of consuming the cheese. I've heard aged cheeses and red wines could set them off...but it's never happened to me... that I noticed, before. It has now!I'll have to read the article completely later...but it was interesting.
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Comment #66 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 16:57:38 PT

Interesting.
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v07/n744/a05.html?397Drunk and StonedSeemed to set off a migraine in me though. Be back later.
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Comment #65 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 16:47:07 PT

Democracy
If it be your will.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1BsWZ9pLzU
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Comment #64 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 16:44:17 PT

Structure
Those who built the city, should they see it destroyed or take possession?
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Comment #63 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 16:42:10 PT

Transition planning
We the People have the right to take the STRUCTURE away from the SYSTEM.
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Comment #62 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 16:40:14 PT

Museman #57
I agree with you.
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Comment #61 posted by Taylor121 on June 24, 2007 at 16:31:30 PT

Thanks Hope 
I knew it would be unpopular, but the word applies to Moore in a sense. The sense that some see it in is completely negative, but that doesn't necessarily apply to every definition of the word. I am just being critical of a one sided approach to deciding on a particular issue.Propaganda CAN work towards the correct side.
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Comment #60 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 15:30:07 PT

:0) Museman
Thanks for clarifying your use of the word of the day.
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Comment #59 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 15:28:02 PT

Museman, comment 57
I completely agree.
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Comment #58 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 15:25:24 PT

Observer and E_Johnson
could give us interesting answers to your question, Unkat27.
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Comment #57 posted by museman on June 24, 2007 at 15:24:02 PT

Hope
There are good people everywhere. I believe that without the incredible pressure and propaganda (lies) of the dominant culture, most people would naturally opt for being decent human beings. I have met a few healers, who were also doctors of medicine. I have met about as many law officers who also bore more resemblance to human beings than predatory animals. I have yet to meet a politician who could look me in the eyes and speak the truth, but I've met many many public servants not on the payroll.It is the SYSTEM of health care, as it is the SYSTEM of weights and measures, and the SYSTEM of (slave, rather than life) education, and the SYSTEM of false religion/s and of course the class SYSTEM of false superiority that is the error and the fault. Good stories about people performing feats of decency and humanity should be told, but aligning those to support any SYSTEM, is error in my opinion.
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Comment #56 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 15:23:46 PT

Unkat27, comment 49
I'm not Whig... and we wait for his answer, unless he's posting it as I write this, but I think it's because our own government used the word so much during the cold war era against the communists...that they stained the word so deeply that they now can only see it as meaning something communist, and heinous, and bad... or something.But that's how the word became popularized...in warning us about all that dire "Propaganda used by the Communist governments". They used to assemble us, regularly, in the auditorium at school to show us films about the dangers of the RED PLAGUE and the hideousnous and danger of them... and of course...their "PROPAGANDA". It was all over TV and print and pamphlets, even. Lol! Pamphlets. That's funny. Pamphlets and propaganda go hand in hand .... often. I'm not sure pamphlets is spelled right...I'm not as enamored of the dictionary as I once was and my spell check won't work. I'll go with brochures.I think everybody just took it, the word, "Propaganda", to mean "Lies"...and it actually means more...but that's the way it was used "on" us... in a bit of a sleazy propaganda effort on the part of our own government. To keep us shook up, worried, possibly even scared half to death, and under their control. It was a long time before I realized that what they were saying and doing was, in fact, "Propaganda", itself. It was bull poop from the start... a sleazy effort...that got it all started. It was a "long time" before I realized it, at about twelve years of age. Must have been on a vocabulary test or something.Of course, when I was younger and could see print better, I did read dictionaries and encyclopedias... a lot...for fun. It seemed glorious to find out stuff, and so easily, to me. I have an amazingly good memory, too. (Not as "amazing" as it used to be, by any means, because of age, and the choice that some things just aren't worth remembering.)
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Comment #55 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 14:43:15 PT

Don't even know if the treatment
killed all my nasty little pyloris... but I can live with them, I'm thinking, if there's any left at this point.Oh. Pylori suck.... and drill and nasticate your insides.As my Zoe would say, "EEEEEWWWWW!!!"
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Comment #54 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 14:40:13 PT

Unkat27
About that antibiotic treatment for ulcers...and it includes stomach coaters, major antacids, and healers, it's ungodly expensive. It's a regular well known "kit" prescribed for use on E Pylori type ulcers.Other people that have taken the treatment say it was a breeze for them and they just started feeling better right away. (I'm not a progagandist!)I'd try the prilosec or something like it before I'd go that route again. Ulcers can kill you...but so can some of the doctoring you can get.
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Comment #53 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 14:37:01 PT

New York Times Article About Michael Moore
For Filmmaker, ‘Sicko’ Is a Jumping-Off Point for Health Care Change http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/us/politics/24sicko.html
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Comment #52 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 14:33:55 PT

Unkat27 ...I'm not sure why,
but I had to laugh when I saw, "If propaganda can go both ways, then why does our own government deny that it stages propaganda campaigns?"Gotta think about that one some more.
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Comment #51 posted by unkat27 on June 24, 2007 at 14:22:48 PT

Thanks Hope
Oops, the last name on topic should be BGreen, for his suggestion about Sicko.Thanks for the info.Yes, I've been told by others that antibiotics would help, and in the past, they did. Funny that, cuz I got the antibiotics from the dentist after having a tooth extracted, and the dang things helped my ulcer too. But I am afraid I'll get the big runaround for the ulcer if I go to the medical center, and I don't fancy any more unecessary bills. I guess I'll try reaching the doc by phone and ask him for the antibiotics, but we know they always want to take tests first.

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Comment #50 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 14:18:32 PT

Canadian Bacon by Michael Moore
I really liked this movie. It starred one of my all time favorite comedians John Candy.http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109370/
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Comment #49 posted by unkat27 on June 24, 2007 at 14:17:00 PT

Good Idea, Whig
But I just thought of one more thing that I can't ignore.If propaganda can go both ways, then why does our own government deny that it stages propaganda campaigns?Why are US leaders so reluctant to admit that they peddle propaganda and always quick to call anything that opposes them propaganda?Seems to me that the lying is implied.
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Comment #48 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 14:11:39 PT

Nobody is attacking or abandoning anybody, Hope.
Thank you, Bro. Green!I can only say this. I've always been disappointed in Moore's choice of title for his latest project. But he's Michael Moore and I'm not and he certainly knows more about what he is doing than I do.
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Comment #47 posted by BGreen on June 24, 2007 at 14:05:51 PT

How about we see SICKO first
and then argue or discuss it's merits and validity afterwards? In my opinion, that would seem to be the logical course of action.Nobody is attacking or abandoning anybody, Hope.The Brother Bud Green :)
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Comment #46 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 13:56:40 PT

Unkat27
They can tell you have ulcers, the horse...the usual type ulcers, with a simple blood test to see if you have antibodies to E Pylori. But they will want to scope, catscan, x-ray, and mri the thunder out of you instead of something that simple and inexpensive. The idea is that the money to pay for that equipment has to come from somewhere! The treatment is ANTIBOTICS in a killer triple dosage for two weeks. Some people go through it easily. It's "chemotherapy" and some people it hits hard...like it did me.That is if yours are the standard ulcers which are caused by a little varmit called E Pylori. If they are caused by pills burning holes in your gut or something like that... it would be different, or course.Over the counter Prilosec can help with ulcers. It coats them and helps them heal and cuts down stomach acid.Personally, I think if I got them again...I'd have to just live with them and pop prilosec. The treatment was extremely painful and debilitating for me.
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Comment #45 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 13:45:05 PT

Cool, Whig.
"What we did was create a corporation to hire my wife and provide both of us with insurance as her compensation package. Yes. That's what we did."My first husband and I had to do the same thing with our little store and business to get insurance, and other advantages. It seemed outlandish...just he and I and, initially, a backer. But it was better for a lot of things.Incorporate? I can't begin to understand what it's all about...but I know some rich, huge, conglomerate corporations can be dictators to the rest of us for their financial benefit. I don't think our little incorporations are or were in danger of taking over the world, though. I'm supposing my corporateness dissolved with the divorce.
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Comment #44 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 13:33:36 PT

Unkat27
Sorry to hear about the sciatica. It's a pain...but it can heal. Of course you're always a milimove away from the pain again...but exercises and care are the key to keeping it under control.I'm glad we have such wonderful technology but it doesn't seem to be used wisely for the most part...it's put into gear to pay for itself and make money and it costs a lot. Everyone wants to be reimbursed for the extra education they had to go through and endure to be allowed to create the machines and on and on, right down to the salesperson.Of course they should be able to earn a decent and good living...everyone should be able to. But basic healthcare costs soared into an unreality zone years ago and it appears to me to have gone far beyond reason and inflation. You can hardly find "basic" healthcare anymore. You have to run the gauntlet of paying for all that technology, education, machinery, and bureaucracy before you can get down to basic care, it seems to me. When they hear "hoof beats"...they used to look for a "horse"...now they hear very expensive "zebras" galloping to the bank or the bill collecter before they can even think it might be a horse. (Based on the saying "When you hear hoofbeats, when you look out the window... are you expecting to see a horse or a zebra?" Since around most places it's going to be a horse...expect a horse first. A doctor told me this when my son had his first convulsions and I feared it was epilepsy. It was febrile convulsions. Febrile convulsions in a child is the expected "horse"...epilepsy would be the unexpected, or the "zebra"... on first consideration.)Some very good ideas, like insurance, and health care progress got perverted to a pure materialistic greed situation. It's awful. It's wrong.Greedy people are dangerous. They always have been. They always will be.
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Comment #43 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 13:17:32 PT

Hope
I have to think about the people who help patients, too, and I don't want them to be hurt by medical reforms. The system we have is completely stupid, in Pennsylvania I couldn't have insurance unless my wife or I worked for a corporation which offered a particular policy to its employees.I couldn't buy that policy as an individual. Wasn't for sale.They weren't required to offer me adequate coverage, even when I had prior coverage.What we did was create a corporation to hire my wife and provide both of us with insurance as her compensation package. Yes. That's what we did.How many people would figure out how to do that?I'm not proud of myself, I'm just trying to explain what I had to do. Others would have no idea, and no help was given by the insurance company to figure it out -- to the contrary, they wanted to cut me out, and keep me cut out.
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Comment #42 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 13:09:02 PT

Unkat27
You'll like the movie I think. In the UK they not only don't charge you anything, they'll compensate your reasonable travel expenses to the hospital if you are indigent.
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Comment #41 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 13:08:34 PT

Whig Comment 32
So true, Whig. Right on, every word, all the way through, to my eyes, and especially, "...this should be about providing people with necessary health care regardless of means."Well entertained, satisfied, wealthy people, sometimes, but of course, not always, but too often, seem to have a glitch in their personalities, or something, that doesn't let them see the terror of their fellow man when they are found to be in a position like yours. I've seen it happen on small scale and large. It's strange.People need to care about other people. Strange how that is ignored so often, somehow, by some people.
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Comment #40 posted by unkat27 on June 24, 2007 at 13:04:19 PT

My story
Late last year I went to a medical facility to report a pain in my lower back and left leg that wouldn't go away. The doctor thought it might be my kidney so he had me go for ultrasound tests. The tests were inconclusive, so he had me go for cat-scans. The cat-scans revealed nothing. Finally, i saw a more experienced doctor and he listened to my description of the pain in detail, tested my reflexes and had me move my leg about and put pressure on it, and concluded that I had sciatica, which is caused by the bone and muscle about the hip irritating a main artery or vein.I had to see a physical therapist and had to do special exercises, and took some presecription pain-killers. The therapy worked some, but I soon realized that doing the exercises at home was far cheaper than continuing to go to the therapist.Later, I receievd a bill for it all ($1400), which was mostly paid for by medicare, but I was still charged $160 after medicare was deducted. This has been taking $20 from me every month now, for the rest of the year. Well, I suppose it could be worse, but the fact is, I have no money left over each month after the rent and bills, and that $20 could be helpful. It's always something. I never have any money after the bills are paid. Furthermore, I have an ulcer that I wanted to see the doctor about, but now I won't because I can't afford to pay a single buck more for medical expenses. Even after medicare helps, I still have to pay something, and I have nothing more to give.Btw, if I had cannabis in the past I wouldn't have abused alcohol and developed an ulcer in the first place.
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Comment #39 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 12:59:09 PT

Kaptinemo Comment 2
A word, Kap.I love it when I'm cruising the net and see comments that I know are you.... even when they are anonymous. I can usually see it's you before I ever get to a signature. I love it.You just can't hide the gentle whine of your electric carving knife even when you try to keep it quiet and hidden behind you!I could be wrong a lot... but I doubt it. Me Kapitan! Sailing the waves of the internet... sometimes quietly and laying low...sometimes riding the crest and all sails pressed full and moving us onward.Not as sure on this one as I am on some...but me thinks the Kaptin is on board in these anonymous comments.Can you find the "suspect" comment at http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/491/dubai_sentences_Westerners_prison_drug_possession
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Comment #38 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 12:57:06 PT

Hope
You're right, the dictionary definition of propaganda includes truth campaigns.I try to think of the meaning behind the words being used, though, and what I think Taylor121 was implying was that there was falsity. If I misunderstood, I'm sorry.I think that it's hard to show all sides, impossible to show more than a few at any rate in the time of a documentary film. We should be open to other perspectives too, and personally I have been fortunate to know how to work the system well enough to get medical coverage. I receive good care from Kaiser Permanente, an infusion every two weeks, and a computer e-mail system that lets me ask my doctors questions from home and have an answer within a few days.I wouldn't want to give this up for something else unless I was very sure it would be better.I'm afraid of being cut off due to my expense, but really it is the cost of the medicine, which is protected by orphan drug law. I don't want to say anything too harsh about it, because these are doctors who found a treatment for a genetic disease that I have and I am very grateful, should I resent them for being wealthy?I see more than one perspective but this should be about providing people with necessary health care regardless of means. I can't afford my own medicine without insurance or public assistance. I never will be able to afford my own medicine. What else can I do? It's hundreds of thousands of dollars, every year, indefinitely. Who would insure me if they weren't required?
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Comment #37 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 12:13:23 PT

One More Comment
The words that are used to put a different view in a box really should be avoided and that is just my opinion. I can't imagine any Doctor that doesn't believe the system isn't working. I have relatives that are nurses and they have seen how bad it has gotten over the last 20 years or so. America was built on many things but one of those things is compassion the real kind. We are all in this together so how can we let people be dumped on the streets like they do to some of the poorest and mentally ill of our country's people. I don't think that pleases God if we believe in Him.
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Comment #36 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 12:05:12 PT

Arguing about words.
Oops. No further word from me on the matter. I shouldn't have butted in in the first place. I like Taylor, a lot, though. Just felt the need to defend him a bit. He's perfectly capable of defending himself, though. Dang! Don't tell me Taylor and I have lost all our cyber compadres over his use of a word!
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Comment #35 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 12:00:01 PT

Unkat27
You are right. Things fire in our brain when we see or use the word, "propaganda". It's what we immediately tend to think when we see the word.
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Comment #34 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 11:56:00 PT

Dictionary
http://63.240.197.90/dictionary/propagandaMain Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect 
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Comment #33 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 11:52:17 PT

Museman...
haven't read all your post yet....but yes...there are good stories.When my baby suddenly started growing something odd behind his eyelid...I started watching it with a doctor and a specialist. It had to be removed eventually. Eight hours in surgery. They took the equivalent of a shot glass of growing cyst from around and behind his eyeball. I was about nineteen and my husband about twenty one. We had just gotten a little insurance policy...and they flew out from under us on this surgery...said it was there before we bought the insurance.We had to pay the hospital out...but that specialist, when he found out our insurance wouldn't help... wouldn't take a further dime for all he did. He did a lot, too. There are many good doctors and competent and dedicated health care people. I've known them. On the general scene, I've seen more tragedy than good and I want improvement on that...but occasionally they set a bone right or treat a disorder or sickness or injury well. A system that would deny anyone the care they need because they don't have enough money...stinks to high heaven. That should be changed.Museman, you are right. No one should ever be turned away. I've been the recipient of what some call "indigent healthcare" many times in my life. As it is, with all the things that can go wrong with the human body...that so called "indigent care" falls far below what it should be, if it's to be counted as a right and good thing. The so called "down side" of that is, yes, there won't be as many super rich insurance people and doctors as there are now...but they can learn to settle for just rich. When they are sucking their super riches out of people, little children and the elderly and the sick and injured and dieing, it's wrong. It's hideous. If we can see that everyone has the right to life...those who make their riches in the medical "industry" that way, can just get used to being a little less rich...if that's what it takes. Enough is enough. It's got to change. Too many hideously wealthy people on the top on this inverted pyramid...and the poor man on the bottom, being decimated by the weight of their wealth. That has got to change. It's wrong. It's bad. It's a bad, black blight of classism.
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Comment #32 posted by unkat27 on June 24, 2007 at 11:38:42 PT

Hope, Taylor, etc...
Propaganda implies lies. That's why the right-wingers use it everytime they want to turn people away from the truth.I don't think of Moore's work as propaganda because I don't believe it contains any lies. I don't think of every argument that is considered "one-sided' as propaganda, because that doesn't mean it includes lies.
Just because an argument is "one-sided" doesn't mean it contains lies.Real Propaganda, imo, contains lies. I don't see Morre's work that way at all.
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Comment #31 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 11:24:27 PT

Good, affordable health care for everyone....
I want that.But I understand that you can want that and still not like the attitude that Moore works with.I happen to like Moore...but you can disagree with me, as long as you don't come after me with a truncheon and a warrant of some kind for disagreeing with you.
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Comment #30 posted by museman on June 24, 2007 at 11:23:32 PT

Is there 'something good'
about our health care 'system? If so I certainly missed it. I have no doubt that if one belongs to the club, and supports the right of gold over humanity, their medical experience is probably hunky dory. Having been refused, and seen many many others refused any care at all because they were poor, looked different or weren't 'from around here' I find it hard to believe that anyone not leading a sheltered life would feel the need to defend such a corrupt and failed system. True the fault is not entirely on the 'profession' of medicine, but largely in economics (the club)...the insurance scams of the bankers has a lot to do with doctors getting hardend hearts, but they bought into it when they bought the idea that they and their 'profession' was 'special' and deserving of more credit and compensation than other less club-oriented jobs. Their excuses all have to do with riches and class distinction however so I can't sympathize.Like everything else that is 'fine and good' in our society, it is off limits to anyone who hasn't the wealth to pay for it, which cuts about 80% of the population cut out of the 'perfect picture' painted by the spin doctors and clever liars of the status quo.At this stage of human development, there just is no longer any justifiable reason why the power-rich should have such
control and say over our lives. They are all throwbacks to the dark ages, and we should be rid of them once and for all. Stinkin' kings and putrid presidents. Reeking senators, and kiss-ass congressmen(and women). All are club members, and they get the finest health care their money and status can provide. Why should they care about people any more than they need to get elected? (which is mostly a lot of empty words and false promises that are never, never delivered.)Michael Moore is a modern hero, who has resource, and uses it in ways other than self-satisfaction and self-glory. Americans need to have their collective noses rubbed in the shit that they constantly pretend is not there, like they pretend their 'leaders' have anything real to offer, and that their 'emperor' (to whom and what they worship and give their true allegiance) is not ugly and naked. If those pretenders to authority and power could see themselves as those who seek and know the truth see them, they would hide in shame.
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Comment #29 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 11:19:28 PT

 And
the words "Michael Moore" can raise as many bristles on some people as the words "George Bush" can on others. They're controversial. Things can get tense! Throw in a powerful and heavily word like "propaganda"... and even more bristles shoot up.The word "Propaganda" is a loaded word and before you use it...you might make sure everyone fully understands how you are using it.We, as individuals and a group, have been sorely abused and bruised by propaganda from other groups...one group being the government and all their many little, and not so little, minions. Drug War propaganda has caused so many needless deaths and so much loss and harm. Naturally, we despise it. Taylor can dislike Moore's work. My gosh... Moore's not God! Can't we disagree with his work?
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Comment #28 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 11:05:00 PT

Propaganda 
My opinion of the word Propaganda is I dislike it. It's a word that immediately tells me what side a person is on. I expect big Pharmaceuticals to call it Propaganda but they will be the losers if society finally sees the need to end our current exclusive for the well to do health care system. Are only the rich, self absorbed people the only ones who need to see a doctor? It's almost like the way we see animals in the wild. The weak die and the healthy and strong survive until they become weak and old and then they get killed. Are we no better or caring then the animal kingdom? 
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Comment #27 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 11:04:49 PT

DankHank and Unkat!
I have no doubt that Taylor is on our side. He just chose a gnarly, bristly word to use and there it sat... "Propaganda"....all gnarly and bristly and upsetting.Government made "Propaganda" an ugly word...and eventually many upset citizens, us included, turned the word back against them.Propaganda CAN be factual.We learned to hate the word and associate it only with lies.I think it should only be used against government groups and groups I don't like....but actually, it's anything you say or present for your case...against their case, truth or lies, if it's used to try and lead people away from one group's thinking, techinically...that's propaganda.Saying something is propaganda, really just means the presentation is a one sided presentation of why the other group...in this case...the kind of medical system we have, is wrong. It doesn't have to be true. But Moore's presentation is, though factual, technically, propaganda...unless there is a  presentation of how the other group can get it right sometimes. Propaganda isn't all lies. It's just a word...saying that what you are saying is completely one sided and against another group. 
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Comment #26 posted by Hope on June 24, 2007 at 10:51:24 PT

Propaganda 
can be true. It can be facts. It's about one group attacking another group with facts, innuendos, and/or, out right lies, and promoting something contrary to the attacked group's agenda and the attacked group has no voice in it. Michael Moore's work can be classified as propaganda.But....it's just a word. Arguing over words isn't good.We got used to the word "propaganda" when we were in the cold war...and we kept getting information from our leaders that everything the communists said to their people was "Propaganda". When I got older, I learned it was all propaganda.It's a word that all it's meanings are often ignored and government propaganda .... alas, made the word popular and most people think propaganda means lies. Not always.
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Comment #25 posted by unkat27 on June 24, 2007 at 10:34:14 PT

Not propaganda
Moore's films are more like anti-propaganda, because they disprove and contradict the BS that we are constantly fed by big govt and the corporate media.Right-wingers that supported the Iraq war called F-911 "propaganda" simply because it opposed the war. They did that as basic psyops, knowing that the word would stick and people would repeat it. The simple fact is, propaganda is what the government uses to start wars, its not what antiwar people use to stop them. I really had to laugh when those right-wing nuts called F-911 propaganda, because it was like a well-known liar defending himself by denying he's a liar by calling another person who has acused him of lying a liar. It's too simplistic and really serves no useful, realistic purpose.
Typical right-wing BS.
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Comment #24 posted by whig on June 24, 2007 at 10:27:46 PT

Propaganda
Is disinformation, usually supported by the government.Michael Moore does not disinform. He provides his perspective. Make of it what you will and obtain other perspectives if you like.Calling Michael Moore a propagandist is propaganda.
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Comment #23 posted by Dankhank on June 24, 2007 at 10:14:47 PT

Terminal two-sidedness ...
There comes a point where most thinking people have to make a stand for something.I submit that the time is here for Taylor 121 to pick a side.To suggest that an opposing viewpoint is required to make a decision is to abrogate that most fundamental of rights ... the right to choose.
If one viewpoint is is offered in a vacuum, that is one thing, and holding up on deciding is a good idea.What makes M Moore noteworthy is that he doesn't operate in a vacuum. He attacks well-known topics that have been endlessly talked to death in the media, and cuts to the point.Who needs to hear the "good" about our medical system before jumping to a conclusion and calling MMoore's newest, PROPAGANDA, makes me wonder.Don't even get me started about those 'wonderful' drugs we get from the Pharma's.If you truly want to make an informed decision, try to not call unknown data propaganda.Who needs to wait to see 'Sicco' to know that our medical system is screwed-up if you are poor and have no medical care.Give me a break ....The propaganda masters work for the Government and the Big Pharma's.Sheeeeeeeesh ................Ya'll thank my spouse for saying we have to go or I might start flaming, I'm so ticked at terminal indecision.
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Comment #22 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 08:22:59 PT

News Article on Sicko
Why Michael Moore's SiCKO is a Health Care Documentary Every American Must Seehttp://www.newstarget.com/021906.html
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Comment #21 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 08:17:20 PT

Taylor121 
I believe that Michael Moore uses comedy and extreme situations to open up the audiences eyes. He is very good at what he does and he has a conscience towards humanity and that's why I like him. 
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Comment #20 posted by Taylor121 on June 24, 2007 at 08:14:00 PT

FoM and everyone else
Good points. I do agree with you that Michael Moore brings up issues that need to be talked about and focused on. I also agree 100% with you FoM in regards to our health care system being broken. We can do a lot better and we should. I have seen Bowling for Columbine and I went to see Farenheit 911 at the theater. I found 911 to be entertaining, but I didn't just leave it at the movie. I went and did my own research to see what Moore might leave out and what he might exaggerate and perhaps get a better picture. If people go and see his movie, all I ask is they hear both sides, then make the decision.P.S. I'm not a Republican :) Not even close
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Comment #19 posted by SnowedUnder on June 24, 2007 at 07:26:13 PT:

On Michael Moore...
The thing I like about Mr. Moore is that he brings the issue forward for discussion. The past Moore films I've seen had the same result. Could it be that The Purple Brain, another propaganda movie, will backfire and help bring about change on Cannabis? I hope it does. Mind you, Michael Moore's pockets are not bottomless like another propaganda movie maker I know.
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Comment #18 posted by FoM on June 24, 2007 at 06:36:00 PT

Taylor121 
I really like Michael Moore's movies. When we had our video stores we had Roger and Me and that movie really was true. Bowling for Columbine was very good too. The 'love of guns' not guns in this country is a little out of whack and he made that point in the movie. He is funny and serious and that makes the substance of his movies unique and easy to watch and easy to remember the points better at least for me. I think the only people who really dislike Michael Moore are mostly Republicans not Democrats. I really wish that people would judge his movies after really opening their mind and trying to get the point he is making. I know how our system doesn't work. I can't deny Michael Moore is right because I have seen it with my own eyes. Our health care system is broken. Ask someone who doesn't have insurance if they can get necessary care without insurance. They do the minimum possible and that is it. I've seen them let a woman who was diagnosed with breast cancer who didn't have insurance be passed around from doctor to doctor for 6 months. Needless to say that time allowed the cancer to grow and it killed her. The value of one person's life is precious so why do we treat people like they aren't worth anything when they are poor or unable to get insurance for whatever reason. It's almost barbaric to me.
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Comment #17 posted by OverwhelmSam on June 24, 2007 at 06:22:51 PT

Moore's Film About or Medical System
Reminds me of the case of a woman who had to have here right leg removed mid-thigh due to a bad infection. She went into the operating room, was anesthetized and the surgeon came in from a round of gold and cut of the left leg instead. Once the woman woke up she realized that they had taken the wrong leg. Well of course, she had to go back into surgery to remove the right leg. She was probably charged for both operations.
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Comment #16 posted by BGreen on June 24, 2007 at 00:02:45 PT

Let's all see the movie first
I personally abhor the US medical establishment as well as the insurance industry.I would argue that the US actually develops 70% of the toxic poisons that people spend their life savings to afford.We'll discuss this more after the movie comes out.The Reverend Bud Green
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Comment #15 posted by Taylor121 on June 23, 2007 at 23:06:40 PT

Sorry if I'm a little skeptical of Michael Moore
I have only seen certain clips of the movie. Let me explain why I called it propaganda. I knew it wouldn't be a popular thing to say on here, but I said it because I firmly believe not just Michael Moore's films, but many of these other films that are critical of Moore are also propaganda. A film can present its case in a one sided manner whereas if you look at the arguments on both sides, you can make a better informed decision. Michael Moore presents a one-sided case.When you show a film that shows the terrible effects of our medical system and only the terrible effects, it is a one-sided approach. On the same token as Michael Moore, I could make a film that focuses on the families of people that were cured of cancer that couldn't get decent health care in other countries, or perhaps I could focus on the fact that America develops 70+% of the world's medicines that save millions of lives.The emphasis should be taking other argument's into account when making a decision on public policy. Being biased will only turn reasonable people off to universal healthcare and this is coming from someone that is more than open to it. 
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Comment #14 posted by BGreen on June 23, 2007 at 18:19:21 PT

Nobody else has called "SICKO" propaganda
Not even the most critical movie reviewers and press organizations. Nobody! Not even one!Until Taylor121, that is.I'll wait until I see it to make my own decision.The Reverend Bud Green
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Comment #13 posted by FoM on June 23, 2007 at 16:33:55 PT

whig
Thank you for the review of Sicko. I know how the medical system works from my son's experience until he was able to get onto California's Medi-Cal I think it was called. It also happened to me while we were insured as self employed people. When you work for a big company like my husband did at General Electric until the work was sent to Mexico we had excellent coverage. Things sure have changed. I'll remove the hiccup. It happens to us all one time or another but I don't know why it happens. 
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Comment #12 posted by whig on June 23, 2007 at 16:16:50 PT

double post?
I don't know how that happened.
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Comment #10 posted by whig on June 23, 2007 at 16:15:11 PT

FoM
I watched the movie and thought it was very good, it made me realize how poor we really are compared to countries like Canada or the UK or France where you just don't have to worry about what happens if you or a family member gets sick, and lose your entire life savings or be denied medical treatment or future insurance. And what makes it worse is that in most states people aren't even allowed to take medicine that works, but Michael Moore said nothing about this part.
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Comment #9 posted by FoM on June 23, 2007 at 15:50:02 PT

 Taylor121
I haven't seen Sicko but F/9/11 was very good. Was the movie good or was it so bad that you can call it propaganda? What did Michael Moore say or do in the movie to label it propaganda is what I am asking.
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Comment #8 posted by whig on June 23, 2007 at 15:43:53 PT

Brain of Purple Mountain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxzcbXL-o6E
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Comment #7 posted by Taylor121 on June 23, 2007 at 14:53:13 PT

Sicko is propoganda
I have no problem with universal health care, but I prefer a balanced approach and argumentation when it comes to public policy, not propoganda. 
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Comment #6 posted by FoM on June 23, 2007 at 14:20:01 PT

unkat27
I think it will be very good. We hope to go see Sicko if it comes around here. 
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Comment #5 posted by unkat27 on June 23, 2007 at 13:10:10 PT

Sicko
Haven't seen it yet but it sounds good.Is medical mj mentioned?I would think that the chances of medical mj being legalized would be greater if Moore's plan to reform the system was put into effect.After all, it's really the selfish corporate profiteers that are behind the lobby that prevents its legalization on the federal level.Take awy those corporate profiteers and we could be looking at legal mj in every state and no DEA busting every little supplier on a weekly schedule.It's quite possible, by Moore's plan, medical mj could become the booming business that it has the potential to be.
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Comment #4 posted by museman on June 23, 2007 at 11:37:59 PT

new footage
I guess this means that there will be new footage to include in "Let My People Grow II" the long awaited sequel. And I bet we can do it without any expense to the American taxpayer (or profit to the spin doctors).I can't wait to cut it up into usable pieces.
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Comment #3 posted by goblet on June 23, 2007 at 08:59:02 PT:

DQA
sounds like it's time again to try to hold the ONDCP to the DQA... with any justice they won't be exempt this time...
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Comment #2 posted by kaptinemo on June 23, 2007 at 07:29:13 PT:

'Purple Brain'? How about 'Yellowback"?
As in lying coward?Every time ol' Johnny Pee goes stumping - on our time and our dime - he just can't seem to help himself. He just keeps lying. It's sad, really. The 'evidence' he cites is no more compelling than that used to go to war in Iraq...in fact, it is even less so. Yet, when offered opportunity after opportunity to defend it in debate, he starts dissembling, evading and eventually running from the chance to have the debate. He hides from the safety of his ivory tower Gub'mint offices, afraid to come out and face the very people whose lives he has dedicated himself to destroy. (After all, they might be a tad miffed at what he has been up to.) There's simply no other word for it: cowardice. Intellectual cowardice. Posters ought to be made and carried in every demonstration in favor or medicinal cannabis: A picture of ol' Johnny with a wide streak of yellow paint down the back of his business suit, with the caption "Afraid to debate the facts" to remind the public of this failure on his part. See if that doesn't stir hings up... 
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Comment #1 posted by FoM on June 23, 2007 at 06:35:29 PT

OT: Another AlterNet Article
SiCKO Is Michael Moore's Best and Most Powerful Documentaryhttp://alternet.org/movies/55049/
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