cannabisnews.com: High Court Takes On 'Bong Hits' 










  High Court Takes On 'Bong Hits' 

Posted by CN Staff on March 18, 2007 at 06:54:27 PT
By Eric Morrison, Juneau Empire 
Source: Juneau Empire  

Alaska -- A goofy sign on Glacier Avenue sparked a debate that many are calling the most important fight over student free speech since the Vietnam War.The questions: Did former Juneau-Douglas High School student Joseph Frederick have the right to hold up a banner declaring "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" while off school grounds? Did former principal Deborah Morse infringe his First Amendment rights by suspending him?
The story began Jan. 24, 2002, while the Olympic Torch Relay toured the snowy streets of the state capital through streets lined with onlookers. Frederick, standing with friends across the street from the school, held up his banner as television cameras rolled nearby.Morse confiscated the banner, had a talk with Frederick and eventually levied a 10-day suspension from school.Frederick sued, and the case began moving up through the court system. Now it has gone as high as it can go.On Monday, the Supreme Court will hear arguments on an issue that has garnered national attention from free speech advocates, prominent school organizations and major media outlets.As things stand, the onus is on the educators.In March 2006, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco overturned an Alaska court ruling and decided in favor of Frederick. The appellate panel found Morse personally liable for violating his First Amendment rights. Morse and the Juneau School board petitioned and got a Supreme Court hearing."It could be the defining moment on the limits of student expression in public schools," said Ronald Collins, a scholar at the nonprofit First Amendment Center.In commenting on Morse v. Frederick, many legal experts cite the case of Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District. In that 1969 decision, the justices ruled in favor of students who were expelled for wearing symbolic black armbands to protest the Vietnam War.Students "do not shed their constitutional rights at the school house gate," the majority opinion read."It's a rather major opinion," Collins said. "Since then, when that case was argued, the Supreme Court in a couple of other cases cut back on the rights for student expression."Vulgar, lewd and offensive speech may be prohibited during school, according to a 1986 ruling in Bethel School District v. Fraser. That case went against a student who was suspended after delivering an explicit speech making sexual references to fellow students.Bruce Hunter, associate executive director of public policy for the American Association of School Administrators, likens the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case to the Bethel decision, citing its disruption of a school-sanctioned event, even though the event wasn't on school grounds, and students were only a fraction of those taking part."This speech was not off-color, but it promoted drug use and made fun of the central figure in the Christian religion, which is also offensive, like demeaning a central figure in any religion," he wrote in an e-mail.Hunter contends that the students were still "in school" during the morning of the torch relay and that the administrators would have been responsible if, for example, one of them happened to be injured during the event.Collins said student speech rights took another hit in the 1988 Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier case, involving a principal who confiscated two pages of a student newspaper, claiming inappropriate references to sexual activity. The court again ruled in favor of the administrator."Educators do not offend the First Amendment by exercising editorial control over the style and content of student speech in school-sponsored expressive activities so long as their actions are reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns," the majority decision said."Bottom line, the precedent set on Tinker ... has been undermined since 1969," Collins said. "The question is what will this case do to a precedent that is already in jeopardy."That's why a lot is at stake now, he said. That may be the one area where both sides agree."It may be that this latest case that the court could drive another stake in the heart of student expression," Collins said.Tom Hutton, staff attorney with the National School Board Association, also noted the potential for a significant impact. In general, student free speech and administrators' rights have become murky since the Supreme Court's last significant ruling, he said."The lower courts have kind of made a mash of things," Hutton said. "The courts need to provide more clarity in this area of law because there are a lot of lawsuits, and every dime that is spent on these costs comes out of some child's education."The issue is tough enough for lawyers who can debate for hours, let alone for a principal trying to act quickly and decisively, Hutton said."We argue that judges need to give school officials a little more benefit of the doubt in these borderline cases," Hutton said.Attorney Joan Bertin, executive director of the National Coalition Against Censorship, an alliance of 50 nonprofit organizations founded in 1974, said it is difficult to know why the justices decide to hear specific cases. People can't be sure if they took Morse v. Frederick to address the free speech issue, the liability issue, or some combination."It's a little bit of crystal-ball gazing, since we don't know where the justices will end up," Bertin said.It's not even clear if the court with decide to decide. The justices could still decline to hear the case for any number of reasons. If they do take up some or all of the issues, a quick decision would be practically unheard of. No opinion could be expected for weeks at least."It's really going to be hard to avoid the clear facts here," Bertin said. "Nobody denied where Joseph Fredrick was when he did what he did, they just drew different conclusions from it."The NSBA and others on Morse's side want to argue for greater clarity of school administrators' roles, and have no desire to stifle free speech, Hutton said."That's not what happened in Fraser, and that's not what happened in Hazelwood," he said. "We're hopeful that they'll provide more clarity, but we'll just have to see how they approach it."School should be a place where teachers and administrators educate students on the importance on the First Amendment and the role of freedom of speech in American society, Collins said. If the court rules against Frederick, it could have the opposite effect, he said."One would hope that they wouldn't throw the student out with the bathwater," Collins said. "One would hope that one would realize that there is a place for the First Amendment properly used by students in the school atmosphere."Note: Case called most important student free speech debate since Vietnam War.Source: Juneau Empire (AK)Author: Eric Morrison, Juneau EmpirePublished: March 18, 2007 Copyright: 2007 Southeastern Newspaper CorpWebsite: http://www.juneauempire.com/Contact: letterstotheeditor juneauempire.comRelated Articles:Free-Speech Case Divides Bush and Religious Right http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread22764.shtml'Bong' Banner Tests Student Free Speechhttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread22758.shtmlCourt Case Tests Limits of Student Speech Rightshttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread22697.shtml

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Comment #72 posted by whig on March 21, 2007 at 14:03:47 PT
museman
George Bush will be protected and kept safe from harm in order to be corrected. He will then be a good man, and he will ask your forgiveness.For now he will have trials and tribulations.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrBZeWjGjl8
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Comment #71 posted by museman on March 21, 2007 at 09:45:50 PT
whig
I am sure you will agree that is is essentialy what one carries highest, and upholds in their heart and mind, that determines whether they pass through that 'gate' or not. There is forgiveness for a contrite heart, but I believe in justice, not man's justice, but God's justice. I do not know (for sure) how God will choose to deal with somebody like George Bush - I can't imagine forgiveness as a condition requiring no effort towards being humble and contrite. I can't imagine that kind of arrogance being rewarded, can you? That I guess is a real good logical reason why it is written; "Vengeance is mine, say's the Most High."I believe that offering forgiveness to some people is like giving a psycho killer a loaded gun, like Y'SHWH's parable of 'Casting pearls before swine.' If it isn't in their heart, then there is no place for it to take root and grow, no place for it to reside. The choices and actions that greedy, arrogant, judgemental, self-righteous 'people' make evident by their choice of posessions, and what they take as symbolic of their true spiritual priorities -like choosing a Cadillac, speak volumes of their nature and character. Such is the nature of wealth, that to even have, or manage to keep it, is contrary to God and nature, because one must serve material wealth in order to have and keep it. One must continually justify their deliberate turning of their back on the 'less fortunate' whom God puts in front of them daily as a test and an opportunity, in order to maintain their exclusive access to it.Ultimately it is not MY forgiveness that anyone will seek, whig. I do not need to 'forgive' whatever you may feel it necessary to be forgiven, that is not my job.I do not believe in 'hell.' I barely believe in Heaven thanks to the rampant ignorance of religion. I am of the persuasion that 'now' is all that there is, or ever will be. The taking of the now, and relegating it to some sunday-school invention of a hodgepodge of ancient fragments of myth and legend, then calling that 'the future' is to me one of the stupidest things man has ever done. It has provided the format and structure for a host of evils propagated against God, man, and nature, not the least of which is the concept of esteeming the value of an inert, unthinking, object, like gold, oil, or money over the real values of 'life, liberty, and happiness.'One can claim much with their words, but ultimately it is what is in the heart that matters. When Y'SHWH said "No man can serve two masters." He made no exceptions. Neither do I.
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Comment #70 posted by Toker00 on March 20, 2007 at 17:14:16 PT
Yeah, go ahead museman, pat yourself on the back.
Because it absolutely DOES count for something. It's just a count of one, but in the right column. That is what matters.Toke.
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Comment #69 posted by ekim on March 20, 2007 at 11:03:03 PT
good going mr and mrs museman
thank you for such a great friend of the earth.
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Comment #68 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 10:56:58 PT
saying further still
And if the physical ring is destroyed but not the bearer, then the ring will pass anyhow but invisibly, until you find the bearer and destroy that person, who is an innocent.
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Comment #67 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 10:53:31 PT
saying more
There is no need to destroy it if the person who wears it is incorruptible. And if that person is not you, can you destroy that person? I cannot and will not, and do not wish to, so it next falls to you to decide.
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Comment #66 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 10:50:09 PT
museman
And now, I need your help and advice.I can find no just means to destroy a ring of power. What would you do?
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Comment #65 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 10:16:12 PT
museman
Another point, if you might bear my insolance another moment, for I am much younger than you. I am perhaps of your children's generation myself, and you deserve what praise you are due for raising them well as measured by how they have turned out.Cannot my family be judged the same in the end?
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Comment #64 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 10:13:58 PT
museman
"I have decided with a stance of immovability, that money is worthless now."Then let it be so, but I only ask you be gentle with those coming through the gate who have never known want and do not know how to care for themselves.
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Comment #63 posted by museman on March 20, 2007 at 09:31:32 PT
whig
I have decided with a stance of immovability, that money is worthless now. However, value, and true wealth already grows on trees.******
I heard a thing on NPR this AM, about an organization (I forget the name) of bankers from several western states that are lobbying for EPA legislation to address global warming, and greenhouse gas emissions. I thought to myself, "Great, the money is going to do something good." Then one of the bankers made a statement; "We're not a bunch of 'tree huggers' we are serious." Now if that wasn't the biggest insult to REAL environmentalists, and a deliberate discrediting of normal people making great sacrifice, I don't know what is.By the way, I'd like to share my pride in my firstborn, who just got picked out of over 500 extremely qualified people to work for Greenpeace lobbying congress for global warming legislation. I don't share her faith in Greenpeace, but of all the things she could be doing with her masters degree, her choice shines pretty bright, and I am exeedingly proud. You can add that to the list of things that I have accomplished. Raising a child who turns out so well has got to count for something. 
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Comment #62 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 00:48:51 PT
paying the highest dividends of all is Karma
This is how I invest my talents.
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Comment #61 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 00:47:24 PT
that metaphor was a little too vague
the money that circulates now is paper, the money that will circulate we will grow.
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Comment #60 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 00:46:04 PT
besides
money will be worthless when it grows on trees.
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Comment #59 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 00:37:31 PT
Just remember museman
When it is time to present the butcher's bill, I'm good for it. I don't mind if others step up and take their share either. In fact, the more the better. But if nobody else will stand up, I will.And I will ask you to forgive me.
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Comment #58 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 00:30:10 PT
as for presence
I have some too. One of these days we're going to synch up and then some things will happen.
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Comment #57 posted by whig on March 20, 2007 at 00:27:52 PT
museman
Of course the problem with metaphors is we have different ones we are using and they don't quite synch up.I'm keeping my distance from that which burns.
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Comment #56 posted by museman on March 19, 2007 at 23:51:27 PT
whig
Everywhere I go in this world, my very presence is a statement demanding awakening and clarity of discernment. In the past I tried various means of disguise, cutting my hair, holding a 'regular' job, going to church. I denied the essence of who, and what I am and tried to adjust myself to fit into 'the program,' even after experiencing the offerings of VietNam up close and personal -and I joined the Navy to avoid it-. No matter what there was no fit. The suits didn't fit. The ties were strangle knots. The shoes inefficient and useless for walking or climbing, let alone working. The 'program.'Fortunately I found a woman who saw my spirit first, my words second, and my appearance last. We set out to live a clean and upright life under God's Grace and with great Faith and belief in that Plan.We traveled for many years like gypsies, playing music, I singing songs that are only now becoming the subject matter of widely shared discussion. I participated in the flow of a mainstream of consciousness that is not available to rent or purchase. The labors of my frontline endeavors on the outer limits of preception and understanding, have become written in our genetic code. I and my family lived off the grid intentionally, for about 15 years, with an incredibly minimal impact -compared to an average american family of nine- to our environment.Through my physical labors of my life, I have learned the basics of nearly every trade, and yet Social Security cannot fathom how it was done because I have worked for trade, rent, food, and many many goods and services without the middleman getting their cut, so there is no record, and most importantly no legal (or illegal) taxable wages. Not one ounce of my being -since my discharge- has gone to the beast.When I walk into a public place, my identity is clear, my spirit unhidden. For years this has been quite uncomfortable and I have avoided social contact, except for music. Music allows me to be social, otherwise the empathic pain would render me senseless or mute. However these days I have grasped the opportunity of it, and like some of the things Toke talks about, -public displays of truth- I enjoy dropping truth bombs that explode illusions, there's a lot of material available.That was for the quote of the 'talents' parable. and the "What have you done?" thing. My list is long, and some of it is classified,... a 'need to know' basis.That I even bother to reply should set to rest your fears of 'being discarded.'I didn't start the fire, nor did I build the house that it burns. If that's your house brother, you better come out of it. If my warning seems harsh, maybe it's because there is no 'gentle' way to yell FIRE!
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Comment #55 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 22:14:58 PT
We are all the same.
I am no more perfect than you. And no less.
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Comment #54 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 22:05:58 PT
museman
You have to take me the way you find me. If I am discardable to you, you will find no other.
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Comment #53 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 22:02:10 PT
FoM
I will try to make it generate an output file eventually. Right now it's experimental code and I know it won't work for everyone. But it has source code and it's a complete alphabet.
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Comment #52 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 22:00:24 PT
If I am to be sacrificed
For the sake of my last name, for the sake of my people, for the sake of my history...We have wasted 2,007 years for nothing.
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Comment #51 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 21:58:48 PT
Peace
Let's try talking.
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Comment #50 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 21:58:06 PT
America is widely hated
Look around you. You are all filthy rich Americans, soaking up all the resources of the world for your wasteful ways! You are all wastrels and if some of you are not, well the building had to be destroyed and they were just unfortunate.No?
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Comment #49 posted by FoM on March 19, 2007 at 21:56:44 PT
whig
I looked at the source and found the embedded link. You might need to save it to your computer and then play it.I don't have what you are using on your link. My computer is old and I am trying to not try new things. I don't want to have to replace this computer for quite awhile so I'm very careful.http://terryhubbard.com/FAM/Nicodemos.mp3
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Comment #48 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 21:55:38 PT
kindness
I will not ask a man or a woman for a coin in order to provide a defense. I do not care if you are rich or poor, I care if you are kind.
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Comment #47 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 21:54:30 PT
judgment
There are good people in America. People who do not deserve to be harmed.I would stand up for them against the hordes of angry people around the world. I do not excuse the sins of my fellow citizens. I do not deny they have done great harm.But they are my countrymen and women. I ask that I be allowed to stand in their place to hear the charges and answer for them.The same goes for my family. The same goes for the human race.
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Comment #46 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 21:48:37 PT
my music project
If anyone is interested. It's still very experimental.http://chromosphere.by.net/
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Comment #45 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 21:47:15 PT
FoM
I think it doesn't work on my browser. Nothing embedded comes up.
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Comment #44 posted by FoM on March 19, 2007 at 21:40:06 PT
whig
The song is embedded so it takes a little bit for it to load.
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Comment #43 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 21:37:02 PT
FoM
I read his lyrics, there was no music.I've read them before.I won't argue with song lyrics...
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Comment #42 posted by FoM on March 19, 2007 at 21:29:28 PT
museman
I checked out Neil Young's web site and I saw your new song. I thought if you didn't know it was there you might want to know.http://www.neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/songslinks/songlink_1520.html
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Comment #41 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 19:14:08 PT
From Now Forward
War, or No War.
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Comment #40 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 19:09:53 PT
this is the time of the choosing
It is my life to give. It is yours to take. I am your hostage.
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Comment #39 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 19:07:58 PT
museman
I will be inside the building if you choose to destroy it.
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Comment #38 posted by museman on March 19, 2007 at 18:47:00 PT
toke
I think you understand then, my own form of extremism. If I seem to undermine, I continually adjust the focus to be sure that it is beneath the deserving false foundations -ultimately I believe the goal is identical.If I simply stated, 'protests aren't enough.' What is provocative about that? Ok, I editorialize, I get prosy and descriptive. I express my experiential, and I believe shared angst towards unpleasant facts that given the choice I would have never chosen to see -or experience.I don't like anything about this society, I think we should give it back to the original natives - the few who still walk on the earth instead of concrete. I'd like to see cars rusting away to nothing, roads being broken by nature returning, a sky un-marred by contrails and carbon monoxide, and the ability to live as a human being instead of a cog in an un-natural, inefficient, destructive machine that actually serves only a select few, if even that, really.Of course that conjures up assumption that by desiring something like that, that I advocate some kind of 'willful' destruction of the current failed, and failing system of values and weights and measures. Seeing it as an inevitability is not the same as advocating.Life is not supposed to be so damn complicated, and I got a pretty good picture of what and who's doing all the complicatin'. This is my 'protest.' Because I seem to be nearly alone in this protest, does it make it less valid? For the time being maybe, but I'm not the first, nor the last to see the relationship between power and wealth, and it's direct destructive, unpleasant, undesirous, unwanted, and uneeded presence in our lives.
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Comment #37 posted by Toker00 on March 19, 2007 at 15:42:45 PT
Thanks, museman. 
If we don't gather at these places of protest and talk and exchange information and LEARN what we NEED to do, then where will we gather to do this? We have made some very intelligent suggestions for healing our world's problems right hear at cannabisnews, but what actions have WE taken? Aren't we still trying to figure out WHAT to do? I certainly agree that protest without civil-disobedience is pretty much useless. Life for most of us, even though it ain't perfect, has been made so comfortable and lock step that we can't imagine in our minds that doing anything other than what we do everyday is anything but what we SHOULD be doing. Most don't know we are way out of sync with nature. Most don't know that they can actually think for themselves. The TUBE keeps most people lulled into a fantasy world that feeds their content-less little urges for food, sex and a blanket, and nothing else is needed. So they think. We know better. So we try to gather people to display to the public that a better world is possible. For most though, their stupid little world of make the pay-check pay the bills is just too comfortable to risk rocking the boat. Since they are not the ones getting bombs dropped on their homes, getting IUDs stuck up their asses, or starving, why should they care? THAT is how useless most of humanity is. And it IS frustrating to hope for large turn-outs at these events but wind up having small free-speech choir/chant sessions. Believe me, muse, I want to BREAK something. Do I want to go to jail? Would you be willing to? THAT is the major hold up for most of us. A simple, temporary "inconvenience" that holds back the most powerful tool on the planet. The People's Resistance. We know we must take it to a higher level. I can get myself out of jail, and am more than willing to go, if I thought whatever I did would inspire others to do what's necessary for change. Not temporary change, not compromise, but hard core LIFE/PLANET SAVING CHANGE. I do what I can, but I am just one person, and I am not ready to be put in a loony bin anytime soon. I stay within bounds with my loud mouth, but I am not silent. A whole room full of Texas Redneck Republican Conservatives got an earful the other day when I told a co-worker, in their presence, that 9-11 was an inside job and that everyone knows it but are just too scared to research it. They all looked stunned, to say the least. It's not easy just doing that, as minute a thing as that was, without carefully considering the immediate outcome. I was outnumbered, but I was in a controlled environment, so I knew their immediate response would be limited and that all of them would clearly hear what I said. I made eye contact and they knew I wasn't either crazy, or scared. Maybe they will at least think about it. We can force people to think, but we can't control their reasoning. They have to come to the conclusion themselves. That's why I also said, don't believe me, go to 9-11Truth.com or any 9-11 truth site. the evidence is there, and it is OVERWHELMING. There is also the problem with media coverage. The media will not portray any protest or speech against authority accurately. Even if we were able to put together a truly astounding and expressive event ( which, for the most part, we DO), it would still be shown as a bunch of losers making trouble for society, and not even as a good IDEA. I'm not going to stop protesting, nor stop defending it, nor stop encouraging it, because like it or not it is the only thing some of us know TO do at this time. There won't be any major civil-disobedience until many more families lose their financial security, have even more run-ins with DEAth agents, lose their sons and daughters to the protection of the Elite as both Militarized murderers or domestic Homeland Security Trained murderers, and are more deeply enlightened about who is truly doing the governing in this world, or until those of us who are now starting to have to foot the bills for other family members who are victims of this insane Godless system get tired of doing so. And that is an unfortunate thing, because we have not fazed the Demons, and time is running short.Toke.     
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Comment #36 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 14:41:18 PT
Matthew 25
 14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. 19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.' 21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!' 22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.' 23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!' 24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.' 
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Comment #35 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 14:31:56 PT
museman
No offense, but what have you been doing while we have been trying to impeach and remove an administration that is doing us immediate harm and threatens permanent death for humanity?
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Comment #34 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 14:28:00 PT
be careful with judgment
I have a first name, and a last name. I cannot uphold one without the other.
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Comment #33 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 14:09:24 PT
museman
I only uphold my name. I can do no less than that, and it will mean (and does mean) a great deal of burden but also a gift. I intend to use it well.Do you wish not to discourse with me?
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Comment #32 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 14:06:39 PT
it was a fun time
We made Bob a saint, too.
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Comment #31 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 14:04:59 PT
RRG
This Pope sure does. (But I prefer not to call it "dope.) I got a nice card that certifies it and everything. It says:THE BEARER OF THIS CARDIS A GENUINE AND AUTHORIZEDPOPESo please Treat Them RightGOOD FOREVERGenuine and authorized by the HOUSE of APOSTLES of ERIS--Every man, woman and child on this Earth is a tsar. Keep the lasgna flying.Robert Anton Wilson Meme-orial, February 18, 2007 * Praise Bob! All hail Eris!(That's just what the card says on it.)
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Comment #30 posted by museman on March 19, 2007 at 11:43:05 PT
whig#4
"If I had been born to the ruling faction, would you despise me for that?"My despite for the ruling faction would only apply to you if you upheld the ruling faction. The building is on fire, it's your choice whether you leave or not. Is my warning to you that the building is burning a judgement and accusation? I condemn the fire, I don't feed it with compromise and denial. The fire burns all it touches, though the keepers of that status quo tend to be insulated from it's effects for a while, and are blind to the destruction that falls around their see-no-evil, speak-no-evil, hear-no-evil denial.Please stop taking my opinions personally, we'll all feel better for it.peace
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Comment #29 posted by museman on March 19, 2007 at 11:13:27 PT
toke#6
"Why do you continue to discredit what is necessary for change, museman?"Well that's just it, I don't believe that a sh_tload of 'Sound and fury signifying nothing' is going to achieve much except make those people who did it feel like they are accomplishing something -the power of the mob. That's my opinion, one of many that I seem to share with a rare minority.I did finish my comment with;
"My hat is off to those who do the best they can with what they have to work with, but sooner or later we have to discard the failed, and start getting real, and the justice system, it's offices, officers, and enforcement agencies are not, nor have they ever been for the benefit of the people."I can find no admiration for what amounts to sacrifices of middle class weekend R and R, and little else, maybe the 'fart' analogy is 'demeaning', and I have no doubt that all those people actually think that they are doing something. I also have no doubt that most of those people and I agree about the problems, but what are their solutions? Replace one ruler with another? "Impeach?" Put in a Democrat? It has been established by more folks than just me that there is little difference between a dem and a rep.I am of the persuasion that the way to cure, or end a rampant disease, is by treating the cause, not the symptoms. I have traveled the States, and a bit of the world. Discussed many things with many people. In my investigation, the evidence is overwhelming that the global cause and root of almost all things bad and wrong is first of all the erroneous thinking that propriety and posession is no#1 priority, with power coming in a close second.FoM says she 'needs' or 'wants' leaders. I don't. Should hers or anyone else desires trump mine? Do I have to have the ancient errors of the world shoved down my life's throat? The answer is yes, but not because it is right, or just, but by the simple fact of power, and nothing else. I have beat my head against the walls of narrow-minded concept, defensive behaviors that come distinctly from a place of denial -denial of responsibility, culpability, and erroneous beliefs of class superiority. These denials are the only substance to justify the imbalance of those who have (posessions, money, and property) and those who don't.I have seen the so-called 'charity' of the rich. It is nothing more than an elaborate ruse to fool people into thinking that those aren't really the greedy world-wrecking bastards that they are. Oh, well they didn't actually pull the trigger themselves, but their hired guns did.Many can be forgiven, but only when they get their priorities straight, and hold life, and love in higher esteem than the state of their appearance, or their bank account. Those who cling to error cannot possibly change what needs to be changed while their foremeost thoughts -that which is 'written in their foreheads, and on their 'right hand' (the hand that gives out exchange)' are about the non-eternal posessions of material things. It's not the posessions, or the money, those are inert powerless objects that only have the power that we give them. If it were possible for a wealthy man to exist without giving priority to false values -and those false values extend to class and 'breeding' as well propriety and posession- then my lifelong investigation would maybe have turned up different results. However, coming from the "show-me" state, I have yet to be shown anything different. I stand on this truth, and when human nature changes into something else, show me, and I will gladly except the change with joy and gladness, and thankfully put my stark observations to rest. Until then, or until I die, I will not back down.As far as the 'protests' go, that was a lot of energy and power, but the war continues, the Dems are weak and gutless -because they don't want to lose their political power so compromise, compromise. Most of those people are back to work today, and it's business as usual with them, as well as their 'leaders.'When that same energy gets directed towards something fruitful, and effective, like taking back our government from the high-society members, and corporate backers, electing people instead of status symbols, having a peoples constitutional convention or something similar, then I will be more than supportive. Until then I remain un-impresed.whig;I 'accuse' you of nothing. I merely state 'facts' with an attitude. If my opinion of a certain class of people offends you, I am sorry, but I am incapable of compromising the truth for anyone. I may withold certain information -from children for example- but I will not compromise for the sake of 'good vibes.' Not all 'good vibes' are actually that, a lot are rooted in denial and ignorance. I know what I am doing. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to be looking at the things that most people do not want to look at. I suppose if all of the material opulence in my face every day had been a little bit more spread around in my life, I might have a different attitude. Those 'royal-blooded do-nothings' however still ride herd over us all with attitudes of superiority that make me nauseous.I am not looking for validation, or recognition. Too many people have the bad habit of confusing the message with the messenger. I don't wish to offend people, just their errant sensiblities. Unfortunately, if they are so attached to the error that they build walls of denial, I stop short of getting a headache in a personal head-banging session.It seems that I am spending more and more of my time here attempting over and over to explain what to me is obvious. I want solutions, not just the liberty to express my opinions, and when I see subject matter, or statements that spark thought and reaction, like anyone else here I want to make my feelings amd thoughts heard. Maybe because most of my posts seem negative folks think that I don't agree with the positive aspects that are posted here. The fact is that my agreement is noteable in my lack of response to them. Sometimes I have stated my agreements. However this subject of which some find offence, is to me a key issue to all of it, and since we have been debating this point, I believe some folks have gained some new perspective. When I see progress, when it is 'shown' to me, I will respond accordingly. If someone thinks they can show me, it won't be done through concept, but action in the world -something that everyone can see. I know that the 'action' of the protests looks real good, feels good to some, but I've seen protests since VietNam, and at this point they just seem pointless, inefficient, and ineffective. An essence of hot air that has already dissipated into the same state it was in before the events.If there was any real power in those protests, Bush would have been hung (maybe not literally, but politically) on the steps of the Whitehouse as a clear and undeniable enemy of the people and the world, and all the fat, rich politicians would have been forced to actually folow the will of the people. Did that happen? Oh there might have been a political wannabe or two on the microphones, but the end result is the same -pretty much nothing but compromises with error- just perpetuation and insurance to uphold the status quo.
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Comment #28 posted by RevRayGreen on March 19, 2007 at 10:09:19 PT
A good source told me
The Pope smokes Dope..............RRG
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Comment #27 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 08:53:28 PT
my belief
When Jesus rose on the third day, he took the name Thomas.
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Comment #26 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 08:51:15 PT
revelation
Thomas and Mary are first person accounts.
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Comment #25 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 08:49:55 PT
scripture
The thing is, he was writing an e-mail to us across time. You don't have to consider his words as literally binding you, but this is a letter from God through his messenger.As we do now.
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Comment #24 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 08:48:23 PT
or not
Don't take my word for it. I might be wrong.
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Comment #23 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 08:47:42 PT
reading for meaning
Ezekial requires some translation to understand, and remember words are metaphors, and words change and are replaced over time and evolve new meanings.This plant of renown we are offering to the world is one that can provide food, clothing and medicine. It is to be all of these, divided in parts. The "leaves" to which Ezekial refers are what we call the bud.
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Comment #22 posted by whig on March 19, 2007 at 08:41:02 PT
Toker00
Ezekial 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
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Comment #21 posted by Toker00 on March 19, 2007 at 03:44:06 PT
Very good, Whig. 
God provided for the nourishment of those genetics, too.Book of Psalms, 104:14: He causeth the grass for the cattle, and HERB for the service of man.Book of Genesis, 1:11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding it's fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth; and it was SO.Book of Revelations, 22:2: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielding her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.Bob Marley, "When you smoke herb, herb reveal yourself to you. All the wickedness you do, the herb reveal it to yourself, your conscience, show up yourself clear, because the herb make you meditate. Is only a natural t'ing and it grow like a tree."Let's take it a step further. BONG HITS FOR GOD!Toke.
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Comment #20 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 18:55:50 PT
My perception
Cannabis awakens genetic memory.
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Comment #19 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 18:50:04 PT
Yay
I really want everyone -- everyone to get along. Arabs and Jews, Christians and Muslims, Atheist and Fundamentalists. Sounds impossible, does it?I follow the Gospel of Mary and Thomas.
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Comment #18 posted by FoM on March 18, 2007 at 18:42:57 PT
Toker00
I agree with that too.
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Comment #17 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 18:25:35 PT

Toke
Thanks. I agree.
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Comment #16 posted by Toker00 on March 18, 2007 at 18:19:35 PT

The RULING Class: PNAC members, Bilderberg members
etc., not necesarrily those who Govern, or are just wealthy, or use their influence for the good of man. When wealth and power are not abused, like drugs, they can be comforting, calming, healing. It's the abuse of power and money that make them dangerous, just like drugs. Just like abusive parents. The intent is what matters in anything we do.And that was MY two cents worth.Toke. 
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Comment #15 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 18:08:20 PT

money
I don't have very much. We are on a student stipend with little extra coming in from my consulting. I am not financially supported beyond this. I skip meals sometimes.I don't have money. I do have family.
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Comment #14 posted by Toker00 on March 18, 2007 at 18:07:14 PT

Cannabis culture/Cannabis: A History. Martin Booth
'The drug being so very widely used on the island, (JAMAICA) despite being illegal, the Center for Studies of Narcotic and Drug Abuse of the US National Institute of Mental Health sponsored a medical anthropological research programme in 1970 to assess how chronic users were affected by it. The final results were published in full in 1975, written by Vera Rubin and Lamros Comitas and entitled simply, "Ganja in Jamaica." The conclusions were fascinating.It was found that marijuana use was the reason for substantially lower levels of alcoholism than anywhere else in similar societies in the Caribbean, it did not cause any measurable brain or chromosomal damage, was not psychologically dangerous and there was no link between marijuana usage and crime, accepting that growing and using it were in themselves illegal acts. More interestingly, the study stated that the culture had in-built restraints which controlled the social aspects of marijuana. The teenagers' decision as to whether a peer should join in smoking marijuana after his initiation prevented those who might suffer adversely from the experience from continuing with it. There were also widely held social rules which said that, for example, one should avoid the drug if not in a calm state of mind; another advised that "ganja" should never be used on an empty stomach.Although the programme was conducted with all the necessary scientific rigour, it was all but ignored by international governments because it did not endorse the PREFERRED view of marijuana having negative aspects to it. Another study conducted concurrently by the University of Florida in Cost Rica, which drew more or less the same conclusions, was similarly suppressed and would have remained unknown were it not for one of the very few copies printed being leaked to NORML.'Danger to Society? Danger that we could become passive and friendly people. That would threaten the very soul of the War Machine. God forbid we adopt our own social laws and customs to keep OURSELVES safe and grounded. No, we couldn't live without the laws of DEAth. There would be no one for the Elite to use as fodder for Profit. I say: TOKE UP, WORLD! Screw the Oil/Pharma/War Mafia.Toke.
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Comment #13 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 18:07:03 PT

FoM
I don't know what Museman means by that either, and if you don't mean to condemn me either then I have no problems.Do you remember my last name, FoM?
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Comment #12 posted by FoM on March 18, 2007 at 18:05:39 PT

whig
Someone who has money isn't what I think of as a ruling class. I have friends that have money and I like them for their personality not their wealth. I don't know who a ruling class person is.
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Comment #11 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 18:01:55 PT

FoM
I don't understand what you are saying. If you found out that I was born to a wealthy and influential family, would you still be my friend?
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Comment #10 posted by FoM on March 18, 2007 at 17:46:04 PT

Whig
I don't have any friends that are part of a ruling class so I have nothing to compare too. I don't mind having leaders though. They are responsible for the good and the bad and it's on their shoulders not mine as long as I follow my heart and vote my conscience then it's out of my hands.
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Comment #9 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 17:32:23 PT

FoM
I don't agree. Say that I was born to the ruling class. Are you going to reject me if that is true?
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Comment #8 posted by FoM on March 18, 2007 at 13:11:39 PT

My 2 Cents
I guess I think that efforts that are generated from the heart are what's important to me. For me it is hoping for a change in 08. I don't want to hurry up and get to the elections because I don't believe in wishing my life away but I'll wait and watch different people stand like they are. That will keep me going. I think how a body works. We have hands, feet, a neck and a head. We have eyes and even toes. Each issue is like a part of a body. They are are needed to make it work properly.
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Comment #7 posted by Toker00 on March 18, 2007 at 13:08:55 PT

Correction
Sorry. They weren't stranded in snow storms. They just weren't able to get there because of the storms.Toke.
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Comment #6 posted by Toker00 on March 18, 2007 at 12:59:45 PT

museman
"When people stop bending over and taking it -and I'm sorry, but thousands of weekend warriors standing around with signs on the white house lawn doesn't really qualify as 'stopping', to me it's just a big collective fart that goes away quite quickly in a stiff breeze-"Why do you continue to discredit what is necessary for change, museman? Did you watch the protest? Did you not see that the anti-war movement is encouraging us into taking it to the next step, RESISTANCE? Protests are an important first step to revolution. I agree we are late in taking the next step in this movement, but you don't have to disrespect those of us who have at LEAST taken this FIRST STEP toward change and I resent our efforts being compared to fart gas. I think your criticism is way out of line. You seem to have given up and are telling everyone else to, too. Most young people today don't even realize what went down in the sixties. It wasn't just people holding signs and yelling, and it isn't just that today. People put their asses on the line then, and they are doing it now. Those people at that protest are doing far more than their credit with you goes. There were ACTIVE duty soldiers speaking out about their right to address Congress w/grievances about this war. Parents whose children have been killed in this war were calling it what it is. Empirical Aggression. Not just discrediting the Bush regime, but the entire system of Capitalism. Can you at least give the Christians credit for showing some BALLS by a display of Civil Disobedience to the point of over 200 of them getting arrested? Or is that just fart gas to you too? They were encouraging us to stop paying our taxes for a war that is a disaster. They encouraged us to take it further and END ALL WARS. I'm sorry. Your post really surprised me. I understand your cynicism because of the situations you and yours have had to endure, but that gives you no special right to discredit other's attempt at breaking the chains. Progress, Dude. Protest, Resist, Revolt. Step by step. Won't back down. I felt the Power of the People at that protest. Not just white people and not just Americans. That protest was broadcast worldwide and even by Al-jazeera, or however the hell you spell it. The message was given to the world that the People of the US are not consenting to this War Machine that they actually went out and Confronted on a very cold and uncomfortable day. Many bus loads of people were stranded in snow storms and weren't there, but they were given credit for trying. They were miserably cold, but they were more powerful than all the Pigs that surrounded them. I felt the power, I got the message. I hope others did too. We must join all our brothers and sisters around the world in resisting this Global Empire with every fiber of our being. When the Migrants protest this time, we need to join them. We need to stop the gears of this Murder Machine. And we will.I'm not arguing with your point that protesting isn't enough. Just the part where you compare us to fart gas. That is demeaning even for someone as sceptical as you. Please just take that part back, k?Toke.    
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Comment #5 posted by FoM on March 18, 2007 at 12:35:57 PT

whig
I'm not museman but a question like that was always a damned if you do or damned if you don't type question. 
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Comment #4 posted by whig on March 18, 2007 at 12:16:52 PT

museman
If I had been born to the ruling faction, would you despise me for that?
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Comment #3 posted by FoM on March 18, 2007 at 11:39:42 PT

Off Topic
Dirt RichPlanting the Seeds of HappinessBy Joel AchenbachSunday, March 18, 2007When I was growing up in Florida, my mom and stepdad planned to save the world through organic gardening. Go find the counterculture and make a hard left: There we were, virtuous, alternative, crunchy before crunchy was cool. We labored under a brutal sun, hacking the earth, yanking weeds, swatting bugs, beseeching the gods to let food emerge from sandy soil that only a pine tree could love. We had discovered the future, and it looked strangely like a scene out of the Old Testament.To grow one's own food was a political act, and some foods were more righteous than others. Sweet corn was a hybrid, too closely affiliated with corporate agriculture, so we experimented with "Aztec corn," the small, hard, black kernels of which radiated so much earnestness that you could almost overlook the fact that they were inedible.Complete Article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/14/AR2007031400188.html
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Comment #2 posted by FoM on March 18, 2007 at 11:23:27 PT

Just a Comment
Since the news is slow I have been reading up on Obama in Oakland, CA yesterday and they posted a link to this slide show. It made me feel good to see this many people smile and have a little hope again. Have a great day everyone.http://www.mercurynewsphoto.com/2007/03/18/obama-rally/
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Comment #1 posted by museman on March 18, 2007 at 10:08:18 PT

liberty and justice for....
It's been over 2 centuries since the 'freedom of speech' was written in as one of the 'inalienable rights' described by Thomas Jefferson. The first ammendment was a fight in itself to attempt a legislative guarantee for the people. For 2 centuries, the average american has struggled with the powers that be in court case after court case to 'define' our 'rights.'The catch 22 of the situation seems to drift right by the awareness of most people apparently, because they think that their government, and the judges appointed by same, comes from the ranks of the people at large, and not the actual exclusive club of inbred rich that it is.If these rulers were 'of the people' why are they fighting against the people? Duh!We can toss the various evil compromises of the 'supreme' court back and forth in a hot-air discussion of 'precedents' and 'established law', and in the end, no matter how the 'final' legaleze gobbledegoo of that court of kangaroos is 'written' it is a virtual guarantee that the interests of the ruling faction - power, wealth, and social status is the deciding factor in any 'vote.'Take this case. Who is harmed by this young man's creative expression of his own opinion? Only the illusions of idiots. But of course those idiots happen to have all the money, and all the power. Their brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, and cousins who collectively have an exclusive stranglehold on political power. They are the ones who are threatened by a simple sign humorously arrayed. It's not the best of jokes, maybe even not a very wise thing to have done under the circumstances, but if you take the government and their equally corrupt religion out of the picture, the whole thing would have gone by without much note.It's a fact that power corrupts, and there are no exceptions. When americans wake up and stop thinking this system is anything other than a pyramidal infrastructure to support the few at the expense of the many, stop giving the authority that belongs only to God to well-dressed fools who have learned the finer aspects of deception and scripted speech,..then we can perhaps truly establish once and for all the sovereignty of the individual-above and beyond that of the state.When people stop bending over and taking it -and I'm sorry, but thousands of weekend warriors standing around with signs on the whitehouse lawn doesn't really qualify as 'stopping', to me it's just a big collective fart that goes away quite quickly in a stiff breeze- when enough people make the internal decision to stop giving power, time, and energy to the money machine, then and only then will there be substantial progress towards national and global sanity.When your neighbor thinks that they can abdicate their human responsibilty to treat you with respect in regards to something that they may disagree with or dislike, and calls the copdogs, it is the accuser who is truly at fault, and that fault is -as in this case- quite often the larger of crimes and infractions against real people, not illusiory political states.Delegation of responsibility is at the heart of the xtian church, the doctrine of Roman Emporers, and the manifesto of Platonian Republic Ideals. Big Brother is a direct result of centuries of brainwashing and programming, and the fact that after 200 years our constitution, and it's selective 'interpretation' by an exclusively trained sect of 'lawyers' the 'people' must still stand and fight for what our forefathers supposedly "ESTABLISHED" is frankly not a good testimony of either our 'freedom' or our 'citizenship.'Of course, the status quo has an Army, and Air Force, the Marines, and a much more equipped and powerful Police Force to keep us from standing up outside the 'designated areas of impotence', and a 'justice' system to ensure that their psuedo-intellectual 'language' of law is held above the grasp and control of the common man.My hat is off to those who do the best they can with what they have to work with, but sooner or later we have to discard the failed, and start getting real, and the justice system, it's offices, officers, and enforcement agencies are not, nor have they ever been for the benefit of the people.
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