cannabisnews.com: Canada's Growing Marijuana Problem 





Canada's Growing Marijuana Problem 
Posted by CN Staff on March 20, 2006 at 07:11:25 PT
By Becky Branford, BBC News 
Source: BBC News 
Canada -- Frank proudly surveys the large log cabin he constructed himself, on a two-acre plot of aromatic evergreen forest he now owns. "All this," he says, "was built on marijuana." Over four years, Frank - not his real name - tended a patch of marijuana plants in a forest clearing about 45 minutes' walk from where his cabin now stands.
He regularly pooled his harvests with those of several other growers in the small British Columbia (BC) town in which he lives, to sell wholesale to young men from just across the border in the US state of Idaho. Frank says he made hundreds of thousands of Canadian dollars before hurriedly leaving the business when his American buyers were arrested. But tens of thousands of illegal "grow-ops" remain in Canada. Estimates suggest marijuana may generate up to C$7bn (£3.5bn; US$6.1bn) a year in BC, the sunny province thought to be at the heart of the industry. Canada's new Conservative government says people like Frank are a menace to society, putting drugs on the streets and fuelling organised crime - and it has vowed to get tough on them. But critics accuse the government of being wilfully blind to the historic failures of law enforcement, and ignoring public opinion and the findings of expert committees in favour of a policy of demonising marijuana - a policy they liken to the short-lived Prohibition of alcohol in 1920s and 30s America.  Vietnam RootsGrowing marijuana in BC's thinly populated and rugged interior, Frank was continuing a tradition - of sorts - said to have arrived with some 50,000 young American men seeking to avoid being drafted to fight in the Vietnam war.  "It's politics that's stopping a change in drug laws and not logic" - Lawyer and policy expert Eugene Oscapella But over the intervening decades, the industry has changed. Most of today's grow-ops are indoors, using artificial light to produce stronger strains of cannabis. The industry has also grown. The Canadian statistics agency reports that in 2004 there were more than 8,000 cultivation offences recorded - up from 3,400 in 1994. Experts deduce that the true number of grow-ops is much greater, as even large seizures seem to have little effect on the price of marijuana. The federal police reported in 2002 that the cultivation industry had reached levels "that could be deemed epidemic in the provinces of BC, Ontario, and Quebec" - and they also warn that almost every large-scale operation these days is linked in varying degrees to organised crime. "Cannabis is the biggest issue facing law enforcement now," says Inspector Paul Nadeau of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). He says smugglers have access to "transport vehicles, planes, helicopters. The sky's the limit". He calls for greater deterrents, pointing out that in BC only about 10% of those convicted of growing marijuana face jail terms (the figure is higher in other provinces), with most offenders getting a fine or suspended sentence. He says judges facing a backlog of cases in the courts "have to be given the means to deal with the problem... We are drowning in the numbers." In contrast to the previous Liberal administration, which sought unsuccessfully to reduce penalties for possession, the new Conservative government pledged in its election manifesto to steer Canada "off the road to drug legalisation". It said it would ensure mandatory minimum prison sentences and large fines for serious drug offenders, including growers.  Consumption RisesBut critics of tougher law enforcement insist it is doomed to failure - and has failed. "I don't advocate smoking anything - I think it's bad for you!" says Stephen Easton, professor of economics and a senior scholar at the conservative Fraser Institute think tank, who has studied the industry in detail. He and other pro-reform experts accept that there is growing evidence of a link between heavy cannabis use and mental health problems in some people.  "Parents and police officers agree the last thing we need is more drugs on the streets" -- Patrick Charette, Justice ministry "But has criminalisation been successful in deterring consumption? The answer is surely no," he says. In 2004, the Canadian Addiction Survey found 44.5% of Canadians reported using cannabis at least once - up from 23.3% in 1989. The proportion of respondents who admitted to using cannabis in the previous year was 14.1% - compared with 9.7% of Britons and 10.6% of Americans in equivalent surveys. Instead of spending half a billion Canadian dollars each year tackling illicit drug use, Professor Easton argues, federal authorities have an alternative: "Tax and trade it like any other normal commodity." In fact, several government committees tasked with evaluating Canada's drug laws have recommended legalisation of marijuana - from the 1972 Le Dain Commission to the Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs which reported in September 2002. A recent survey suggested 51% of Canadians supported decriminalisation of marijuana.  Prohibition 'Empires'"There have been studies galore in Canada and elsewhere looking at this issue - it's politics that's stopping [a change in drug laws] and not logic," says lawyer Eugene Oscapella, a founding member of the independent Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy. "It's hypocrisy, it's cowardice," he says - a charge the justice ministry declined to comment on. Mr Oscapella suggests Canada is fearful of crossing the US government, which he says has threatened to slow bilateral trade worth about US$1bn per day. Some 85% of marijuana grown in BC is estimated to be exported into the US, though total border seizures of marijuana only amount to about 3% of that discovered entering the US from Mexico. Mr Oscapella also argues that some sectors have an interest in maintaining what he calls the "Prohibition" on marijuana in Canada. "You have to look at Prohibition as an industry: the crime-control industry. There are empires built around it - not only organised crime, but government bureaucracies, police departments, privatised prison industries in the US, pharmaceutical and drug-testing companies. These empires thrive on Prohibition." He says he fears tougher enforcement will lead to a burgeoning prison population, but have little impact on the illicit industry. Meanwhile, critics charge, the proceeds of the industry continue to feed what a recent editorial in the Vancouver Sun newspaper called the "monster" of organised crime. As early as 2000, RCMP Commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli warned this "monster" was threatening to destabilise Canada's parliamentary system.  'Pay The Price'But police insist tougher sentences, not legalisation of cannabis, is what is needed. This argument is echoed by the new Ottawa government, though it says it will take advice before formulating a detailed drugs policy. It argues any resultant increase in spending on tougher law enforcement will be offset by lower spending on the social problems caused by drug abuse. "Parents and police officers agree the last thing we need is more drugs on the streets," says the Ministry of Justice's acting communications director Patrick Charette. "There has been a huge inconsistency in the application of the law - whether you're caught with a joint in a small rural community or downtown Vancouver, you'll get [a different] reaction from the police... "Rather than simplifying and having a more relaxed approach, we think you need to enforce the law and make sure those caught with drugs and producing drugs pay the price." Newshawk: Graehstone Source: BBC News (UK Web) Author: Becky Branford, BBC News Published: Monday, March 20, 2006Copyright: 2006 BBC Website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/ Contact: newsonline bbc.co.ukCFDPhttp://www.cfdp.ca/CannabisNews -- Canada Archiveshttp://cannabisnews.com/news/list/Canada.shtml
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Comment #65 posted by Hope on March 21, 2006 at 21:12:55 PT
comment 64 John Tyler
There you go with one of those statements that is so about exposing the truth...making it vividly clear and just absolutely blowing me away.
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Comment #64 posted by John Tyler on March 21, 2006 at 20:07:41 PT
Getting tough
Getting tough is really going to "fix things" isn't it? Look how well it has "fixed things" in the good ole USA. Do you want to be a police state too with tens of thousands your citizens locked up for decades because they wanted the freedom to have a plant. Get real. Don't get caught up in the USA drug war delusion. 
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Comment #63 posted by runderwo on March 21, 2006 at 11:01:37 PT
salvia
I'm not sure what the big deal is about salvia. I didn't smoke tons of it like some people did, I smoked two tiny bowls of 5X extract along with cannabis. It produced some nice closed eye visuals and a very strange body buzz. I'm sure more of it would be disorienting, but why go over the top?Also, it is a kappa opoid agonist, and kappa opoid receptors produce the opposite effect of mu-opoid receptors, in that activating them INCREASES dopamine reuptake, meaning that any memorable aspect of the salvia trip is NOT due to dopamine-based reinforcement. And in fact, this is the reason why it is unpleasant for many people who are expecting a "happy" trip.
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Comment #62 posted by b4daylight on March 21, 2006 at 10:23:50 PT
Frank a moonshiner
1920 Frank survey's his hidden barrel stash. Ready to pokect a few thousand dollars. The reason for the federal drugs war is to fund paramilitary operations and covert foreign operations; all under the local police force or local governments.
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Comment #61 posted by goneposthole on March 21, 2006 at 07:37:50 PT
Thank Frank
All of the postal workers, school teachers, nurses, and anyone else you would like to list sure do thank Frank.I will also extend a thank you to the leaders of the Province of British Columbia for their tolerance. Cannabis has been good for British Columbia.Cannabis as a medicine cannot be denied. All sorts of laws, opinions, rulings etc. all proclaim otherwise; however, it cannot be done. All of the fancy schmancy reasons not to use cannabis don't amount to a hill of beans. They don't mean squat.I did say nurses didn't I? They're all for medical marijuana, fyi.They know what works.It's your life, your body, your mind. Set it all free.
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Comment #60 posted by unkat27 on March 21, 2006 at 06:17:27 PT
Re: Sally D.
I was getting into experimenting with Sally D. just over a year ago when a new noisy neighbor moved in over my head and ruined it. Up until that point, I found the experiences "interesting" and because I can't get mary-jane round here, my life is otherwise quite boring. So, for me, without a noisy neighbor over my head, Sally D. was an interesting departure from my otherwise boring, hum-drum tedious all-work/no-play life. Chances are, if it weren't for the noisey neighbor, I would've did the whole shaman roll and had some very fascinating experiences. Unfortunately, i only had three before the noisey neighbor ruined it. Noisey neighbors are not good for the Sally D. experience. Someday I'd like to try it again, but it's not something I'd mix with my work or play to any extent. It is fairly odd that Sally D., which is a potent psychotropic like LSD or Mescaline, is so much easier to get than the relatively harmless marijuana. I'm quite sure that this is by design. The vampires and vultures would really much prefer every working-class families kids fuck their heads up misusing and abusing Sally rather than educate them well about the proper use of marijuana. I have absoultely no doubt about this. If they cared, we would know by now. But they don't. They are blood-sucking leeches and liars, the whole lot of them. When someone's kids gets busted for mary-jane, they have the power to make him or her a slave. It's as simple as that.
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Comment #59 posted by lombar on March 20, 2006 at 23:30:05 PT
I think..
If the governments actually just told the truth about the various drugs instead of painting cannabis as this new super weed 20 times more potent, making it so dangerous and all that with NO BODY COUNT in sight, that kids would fear becoming hooked to injecting themselves 10-15 times a day (ICK! but it happens) and rightfully. A simple 'before meth' then 'after 3 years' series of photos would reveal the facts and the wise would again stay away. Hide a camera in a crack house and let people see the waste such an existence represents...However saying the devil weed will steal your soul and then people use it and wonder "if thats not so bad I'm gonna get some cocaine". Legalizing and regulating takes the stuff from the bad guys and the cops and I'm for that. Neither an eternal massive criminal underground and the accompanying police state as the response sit well with me. The spokes person on the BBC said it well, prohibition has created havoc in asia and on the streets of the western world. No matter how harsh the laws seem to be, there is drug trade and production. Poisoning columbia and the street price of crack is falling.. the current system is the worst possible and they claim the low numbers of addicts is the result... coffee, tobacco, and alcohol not included of course.War, violence, suffering, huge wasted expenditures of capital both finacial and human, all to justify the war against a plant that makes people sit around and dream of a better world.. stop heaving their guts cos' the chemo is wracking their bodies and the drug cocktails are sickening in their numbers, attack twinkies with a vengence... so big people can make big money of the backs of the suffering. 
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Comment #58 posted by afterburner on March 20, 2006 at 22:21:48 PT
The Folly of Decrim: Demonization of Growers
Canada's Growing Marijuana, ProblemCanada's Growing, Marijuana ProblemCode: Growing Marijuana is Canada's Problem; grow-ops are a "menace to society."Actually, grow-ops are a menace to prohibition; prohibition is a menace to society. "Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness POSITIVELY by uniting our affections, the latter NEGATIVELY by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher." --Thomas Paine"These are the times that try men's souls" --Thomas Paine
Common Sense by Thomas Paine
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Comment #57 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 22:08:18 PT
Observer...Your comment is breath taking.
To me anyway, and so relevant to what I've been thinking today. It's so accurate in it's perspective in every way. You've said what I've thought but couldn't say and couldn't quite think to as solid a grasp as you have on it.Today I was wondering about that "on the street" stuff, too. Is he talking about sales or use? Surely he means sales.Legalization would take the sales off the so called "street" and into legitimate storefronts, just like it did with alcohol, so it's difficult to know exactly what the guy means. I couldn't quite get what the heck he meant by that, either. I'm so glad you grabbed it and cogitated it to a better place in the light. Thank you. 
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Comment #56 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 21:51:25 PT
Lombar
My thoughts exactly on the ONDCP and their surveys and such. They are just making far fetched estimates because that's all they can do.Marijuana should be cheaper to sell than tobacco, because it's easier and less costly to grow. It shouldn't be taxed as much, because it's actually beneficial in many ways, far more so than tobacco. Cannabis actually slows or stops the growth of cancers through apoptosis and doesn't encourage the growth of cancerous cells, like nicotine does. Tobacco calms some schizophrenics sometimes, I've read and of course some people just enjoy it. It's already taxed so high now that it's bordering on starting a black market...and actually is taxed so much in some countries that it's created a large black market for it. So while cannabis should be taxed, it shouldn't be taxed to the degree that tobacco is. It should be reasonable. Hah! Reason. That's a rare commodity in the world today.If a person could be assured of what kind of cannabis they were getting and it's strength, there would be less of other drug use. I think. You know there is stimulating weed and sedating weed. You know there is thinking weed and moving and creating weed. There are qualities of cannabis that can last for hours, although the usual with most of it is only a couple of hours. With marijuana of know strengths you can choose the length of time you want to feel it's effects. Some pot, you can almost set a clock by how long it will last. There's strong and weak weed. When it's cheaper than meth, even by the hour, and it's certainly safer, and when it's a known quanity and quality, it will decrease hard drug use, I believe.It won't eliminate hard drug use, because so many people are already addicted to those harder drugs...but I believe, like most of us here, that most people would be quite satisfied with good, known quality cannabis, if it were available. Some people will actually like to choose the weaker weed for perhaps regular smoking and the totally WOW! strains of cannabis for moments when they choose to have a more intense experience. If a person has only tried one or two strains...they don't have a clue of the span and scope of enrichment that is available in different strains and strengths.And yeah...if it's not cheap it won't undercut the black market. People should be able to grow just like they can grow their own grapes and make wine, now. But there will always be people who would rather buy their wine, grown and bottled by some one else of perhaps greater expertise, and there will always be those who prefer not to get into the agricultural or herb garden side of it. Convenience and instant gratification in itself is worth something to a lot of people.It will work out a lot better all the way around if they don't go totally hog wild with the taxing part.
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Comment #55 posted by observer on March 20, 2006 at 21:25:27 PT
The Imperial We ... On the Streets
"Parents and police officers agree the last thing we need is more drugs on the streets" -- Patrick Charette, Justice ministryWhat's this "on the streets" bull? What's that supposed to mean, exactly? Government, prohibitionist propaganda (a.k.a. public relations) likes to refer to prohibited drugs as "on the streets". Is it an effort to smear the users of some drugs as being "on the street", say, as opposed to "in the country club" or "on the golf course" or "at the pub"? That's what it looks like. And what's this Imperial "We", anyway? In (ostensibly) democratic societies, the people's wishes should be carried out by the government. The government should not tell the people what the people should think. That's backwards. That isn't democracy, not really. No, what public servants like Patrick Charette, Justice ministry should be saying is something like this: "As public servants, we shall honestly endeavor to determine what the public desires, and do that."  But we won't hold our breath waiting for the day that a so-called "public servant" actually acts like one instead of a power-tripping little beast. Charette presumes to speak for all "parents and police" (whatever that means) as he lustily uses prohibition to jail plenty of parents and to corrupt more than a few police. Well, at least it is "good business" for police, jailers, stun gun makers, the drug test industry, makers of manacles, shackles, razor wire, helicopters, machine gun manufacturers, SWAT equipment salesmen, the drug treatment racket, just to name a few if the drug war camp followers, off the top of my head. 
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Comment #54 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 21:19:41 PT
 lombar
I know what you are saying. I believe the price would drop rapidly over a few years if cannabis was legalized. I honestly don't know what to think of drugs like Heroin and Meth. We already have drugs similar to Heroin and Meth now. If they allowed people to use these drugs, if that's what they want, then why would Meth or Heroin even be needed? Oxycontin is similar to Heroin and Meth is similar to other Amphetamine based drugs. I also believe that we will see more Heroin addicts because when they make Oxycontin hard to get people who are strung out won't have a choice but to go to the streets and buy Heroin.
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Comment #53 posted by lombar on March 20, 2006 at 20:57:18 PT
FoM 
If they legalized cannabis and the other drugs the price would drop or the black market would still create a supply of something that was cheap. Like the abundance of cannabis yet the growing amounts of meth. It's cheap, long lasting.. If they were to say cannabis is legal but maintain the black market prices (like Health Canada and Flin Flon product or sativex) then everyone would undermine it by producing their own. Essentially it is the prohibition that is giving drugs their value. Cannabis is a weed, anyone (except the state of course) can produce fields of the stuff. I figure the prices would drop by a factor of 10 with the governments still doubling or tripling the prices with taxes. Why would it be any more than tobacco (proven killer)???As long as they are illegal, we will never really know the true extent of currently illicit drug usage, thats why reports of progress by the ONDCP are such a joke. If you don't know how much there is in the first place how can you tell if it has increassed or decreased. My personal favorite is the constantly increasing numbers of arrests. If the drug war worked wouldnt there be less arrests??? (ie less people using drugs...)Prohibition is a scam and a crime.
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Comment #52 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 19:04:40 PT
Here is a snapshot
http://www.rawstory.com/comments/12175.html
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Comment #51 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 19:00:45 PT
Iraq, chaos, disorder
It is still the same thing.
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Comment #50 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 18:59:19 PT
Analogy
I don't know if this helps or clouds the understanding, but consider life in all of its multifaceted forms. Consider the mold which grows on food left too long in the refrigerator. Consider a cancerous tumor, or a bacterial infection. Look at a sick bird who has lost the ability to fly and is being eaten by maggots. Disgusting. This is what life is, too.We are trying to bring something good out of a messy seeming chaos here. Remembering where we came from, then, is remembering the chaos.
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Comment #49 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 18:56:54 PT
Hope
LSD was legal when my friend moved to Berkeley. They had classes to prepare for a Trip. They always had someone ( a teacher who was a Psychologist ) who didn't take any acid to be there to talk someone down if they got a little too far out there. When we were on the red cross crew at a big outdoor concert we had to go to a class and were taught what and what not to do. Basically never freak out a person who is tripping but talk them out of where they were if they seemed upset. It was really called talking them down. You don't see that kind of thing anymore.
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Comment #48 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:50:10 PT
One thing I can see about all these experiences.
They make you appreciate what magnificent beings we are and how much just lays unused in our abilities to grow and experience.
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Comment #47 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:47:04 PT
Mayan, comment 41
"Why do those who appoint themselves to play God feel a need to punish folks who harm nobody else's person or property? Surely it is a form of mental illness."I agree. I truly think they are sick...as in "sickos", and at the very least, if not truly mentally ill, seriously character disordered.
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Comment #46 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:43:43 PT
EEEEEK!
Trying to get away from a giant tarantula on a marshmallowy road! I'll let that train leave the station without me!
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Comment #45 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:41:50 PT
Whig
"Does this seem sensible to you?" Strangely enough, it does. I've always been a little out there more than a lot of folks even without enhancement. So, yes, I do, I think, understand what you are saying. I think I'm already too far out there to risk going that much further!"It's not really therapeutic, more like psychotrauma, but not painful, just profoundly disturbing." I understand that, too. I can conjure up an amazing amount of psychotrauma on my own without any assistance. All knowledge about everything isn't a helpful thing at all.Yeah...I know myself well enough to know that, occasionally, enlightenment can be more like endarkenment. I'd never prohibit the hallucenogenics to a knowledgable adult...but I'm not tempted to try them, either.Spiders! Tarantulas! No thanks! The marshmallowy road sounds kind of fun, though. But no...couldn't risk having the spider thing happen. 
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Comment #44 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:30:44 PT
Oh my gosh!
Spiders! Tarantulas! That'll work for an "anti-drug" for me.First hand stories like that is why I always passed on the acid.
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Comment #43 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 18:28:31 PT
Hope #38
I came from being. Do you think words could suffice? It's not really therapeutic, more like psychotrauma, but not painful, just profoundly disturbing. It reminds us of the things we should generally put out of mind in order to function properly in this context. I said it is the tree of knowledge, and I meant it just as literally as I say that cannabis is the tree of life. I try not to remember too much detail but it is there, and I know that every time is still the FIRST time, there is no time. Does this seem sensible to you? It is how it is, and we really are what we are, and we really are doing what we are doing, in order to become what we want to be. This is the wisdom and life of cannabis. Be the change you desire.
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Comment #42 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 18:27:11 PT
Sukoi and Hope
That was some impressive spider! Glad you liked the story.
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Comment #41 posted by mayan on March 20, 2006 at 18:26:24 PT
Pay the Price
"Rather than simplifying and having a more relaxed approach, we think you need to enforce the law and make sure those caught with drugs and producing drugs pay the price."Why do those who appoint themselves to play God feel a need to punish folks who harm nobody else's person or property? Surely it is a form of mental illness. THE WAY OUT...The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll: A new generation of conspiracy theorists is at work on a secret history of New York’s most terrible day:
http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/16464/index.html
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Comment #40 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 18:23:14 PT
FoM
That's friggin HILARIOUS!!! I've never been lost in a phone booth but I did once watch a HUGE oak tree turn into a giant tarantula... cool spiders!
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Comment #39 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:21:09 PT
Lol!
Really loud! Lost in a phone booth! That's just too much. You guys are cracking me up.
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Comment #38 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:19:32 PT
Comment 30
Whig...that's interesting. Sort of like regressive hypno therapy. May I ask where it was you discovered you came from?
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Comment #37 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 18:19:31 PT
whig
I wouldn't recommend it either but to each their own...
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Comment #36 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 18:17:54 PT
A Funny Story
When I met my husband back in the 70s he told me this story. He was back from Nam and it was the live and let live way of thinking that went on for a time back then. He and a friend did some acid. It was a very warm summer night and they went for a walk in a small local town. No one was out anymore because it was late. As they walked down the middle of the street the street started to feel like they were walking on a marshmellow. Later his friend got lost in a phone booth.
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Comment #35 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 18:13:47 PT
whig
That's very true, I got the exact same feeling... It's weird; it kind of remakes your conciousness as it makes you feel more like a part of the universe rather than a being within that universe. Definately different...
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Comment #34 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 18:09:19 PT
Salvia Divinorum
One of those "If I Ever Get Out of Here!" experiences.*smile*Sukoi, it makes my palms sweat just to think about it.Whig...we probably forget birth for a good reason. It's obviously as hard on the child as it is the mother most of the time. Probably like being smothered, squeezed, and yanked around by a giant wet boa constrictor...for hours.
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Comment #33 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 18:08:16 PT
Well, I can't elaborate too much...
but in thinking a bit harder, I can remember the DNA being formed for the wood that made up my couch; part of which I became and the DNA for the fabric is just too creepy to think about!
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Comment #32 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 18:07:17 PT
On the other side of the coin...
It is Salvia which awakened me. I never perceived time the same way since. I knew without understanding, things I could not explain.THERE IS NO TIME.
WE ARE HERE NOW.
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Comment #31 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 18:05:04 PT
I will not touch salvia...
I do not recommend it.Imagine forgetting who you are. It is not losing your ego, it is ... not having it yet.
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Comment #30 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 18:01:46 PT
A little further back...
I even remembered where I came from before I was born.
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Comment #29 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 18:01:16 PT
Hope
That's pretty much how it was for me :-)
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Comment #28 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 17:59:49 PT
My first salvia experience
I remembered my childbirth.
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Comment #27 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 17:59:34 PT
Very true Max
A friend of mine tried it several times and felt nothing while at the same time I was becoming part of my furniture. I dunno...
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Comment #26 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 17:57:33 PT
Salvia Divinorum
Anyone that I ever knew of that tried it wasn't exactly Jonesing to do it again. At all! It doesn't make you feel good, or better and it isn't a fun experience from everything I've been told.How frumpy is that? Feeling like a couch! *smile*Or worse...a disembodied head or mind? That seems fairly common with the stuff, too.I think it's one of those trips that you just want to get back from.
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Comment #25 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 17:56:26 PT
It's hard to explain...
but you feel like you are physically becoming part of your furniture but your mind is as clear as can be. The effects only last a few minutes and there are no side effects but those few minutes are intense. One interesting thing is that salvia makes the palms of my hands sweat, I don't know why but again, it's not for me. Perhaps that's why it's not illegal (yet) because not many people actually have an enjoyable experience under its' influence. Hmmm, go figure???
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Comment #24 posted by Max Flowers on March 20, 2006 at 17:55:23 PT
And on the other hand...
Some people get almost no effect from salvia at all. I'm one of them. Not only are there no out of body or dream like experiences for me, it basically doesn't do anything. So the biochemical mysteries are very much unresolved with salvia, when it can do such different things to different people.I took about six huge hits of 10X extract as a final attempt after several unsuccessful smoking attempts, and all that happened was a slight light-headedness and an odd feeling that some kind of "force" was gently pushing me from behind, like a ghostly hand on my back. But there was nothing I could describe as dream-like or a high or anything like that.
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Comment #23 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 17:51:33 PT
Rainbow
I agree completely with you. My grandchildren and many other children do, too. My grandson told me when he was in the DARE program that he really thought it caused more drug experimentation than it ever prevented. They'd have never given a thought to using drugs at such a young age if DARE hadn't put it in their heads. Heck, I learned more from Partnership for a Drug Free America's ads than I ever wanted to know about all kinds of drugs. They truly are promoting drugs and drug use like no one or anything else. It's stunningly stupid. But maybe that's what they mean to do...so they can keep busy in their chosen fields and continue to increase the profits of all the business, and incarceration, and extended means and "tools" of control that has sprung from prohibition of drugs.Either because of DARE or all the news and shows and hullabaloo about the heinous war on drugs or the fact that so many family members, neighbors, and friends are in law enforcement...I've watched little kids play "Cops and Drug Dealers" more than "Cops and Robbers" or "Cowboys and Indians". And worse, they all wanted to be the Drug Dealer! 
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Comment #22 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 17:44:45 PT
Sukoi
You felt like you became part of your couch. I remember feeling weird like that years ago when someone put PCP in a joint.
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Comment #21 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 17:37:01 PT
FoM
It's VERY different than anything that I have ever tried, it's very strange indeed. The last time that I took a couple of hits, I BECAME part of my couch... It's almost like you have no "body" and are only a "mind". Your conciesnous is elevated but it's weird... It's just not for me. For those considering salvia, please look here first: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Salvia_divinorum.shtml
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Comment #20 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 17:13:53 PT
Sukoi 
Thank you. I never tried it. It doesn't sound like cannabis at all. There's nothing like the real thing.
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Comment #19 posted by Sukoi on March 20, 2006 at 17:11:32 PT
Salvia Divinorum
Salvia is NOTHING like cannabis, it is FAR more potent. It gives me an almost "out of body experience" and is something that I don't really care for. There is NO substitute for the "miracle plant"; none whatsoever...
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Comment #18 posted by rainbow on March 20, 2006 at 17:08:59 PT
Re: Commernt #12 and Hope
I said once a long time ago and still say it.DARE and ONDCP were/are absolutely brillant elements of a Marketing Plan for using Cannabis and other drugs.I had no idea what cannabis was until 12th grade and now thanks to DARE and ONDCP my fourth and fifth grader knew about them and funny how the usage dropped so fast to the lower school grades.Yes we gotta keep up the spending on the drug war and control the people.I also wonder if the Patriot Act was really the Drug War legislation the congresscritters tried so many times to pass.I wonder because something like the Patriot Act do not just show up in a week or so time. They have many of the same elements.Oh Well back to harrassing my state legislators for not passing an mmj law in committee.Cheers,
Rainbow
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Comment #17 posted by MikeC on March 20, 2006 at 17:01:04 PT
Salvia
I have experimented with Salvia Divinorum on a few occasions. It's not really for me but to each their own. 
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Comment #16 posted by whig on March 20, 2006 at 16:45:40 PT
Salvia/Cannabis
Salvia divinorum is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.Cannabis sativa is the tree of life.Any questions?
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Comment #15 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 16:28:32 PT
Comment 13
Overwhelm Sam...every word...right on the mark.The problem most certainly is cannabis prohibition. If it were ended, so much would improve, including the improvement that increased disuse of stranger things than cannabis would bring.
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Comment #14 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 16:22:52 PT
Salvia
Everytime I see a new bad drug I think why, why, why? The more the horrors of a drug are promoted the more the drug will be tried. It's like waving a red flag in front of a bull and the bull in this case is the children. If I was a prohibitionist and I didn't want people to do a drug I wouldn't talk about it.
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Comment #13 posted by OverwhelmSam on March 20, 2006 at 16:13:22 PT
What Problem?
I don't have a problem picking up a little weed whenever I want it. I don't have a problem being discrete to avoid the anti-pot laws. I don't have a problem being in an occupation that does not test me for residual marijuana metabolites.The real problem is that people are switching to Salvia Divinorum, Inhalents, Coffee, Alcohol, Ecstacy, Meth and what ever else they can get their hands on to avoid drug test detection for marijuana. The real problem is forcing marijuana consumers out of work and school and putting them in a position where they have to steal and commit fraud to make a living, or switch to a drug that's less detectable.The real problem is marijuana prohibition.
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Comment #12 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 16:06:49 PT
Salvia Divinorum
It may be "widely available" but it's not widely used and it's not widely popular. Most people would prefer cannabis any day.Just more fear mongering and hoping for more prohibition and more people to feed into the prison industrial complex.Most people would never have even heard of salvia divinorum if it weren't for the prohibs bringing it up every few years in their efforts to prohibit something else and scare parents.I really think the prohibitionists are promoting the stuff. 
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Comment #11 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 15:57:36 PT
lombar 
I wanted to say the BBC program was very good. I wonder something. If they treated drugs like tobacco and stopped people from smoking in many places and raised the price like they have on cigarettes would it work for hard drugs? When the price got high like tobacco wouldn't that cause another illegal market? Another thing. What company would risk the liability to supply hard drugs?
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Comment #10 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 15:16:42 PT
NPR Radio Program
Legal, Herbal Hallucinogenic Draws Teens, Critics By David Schaper 
 
 All Things Considered, March 20, 2006 · A powerful and legal hallucinogenic herb is gaining popularity among teenagers and young adults. Salvia divinorum is also raising concerns among parents and lawmakers across the country.The herb, sometimes called "Magic Mint," "Ska Maria Pastora" or "Sally D," is widely available on the Internet and at some tobacco shops, head shops and stores selling herbal remedies. Critics say it is being marketed and sold misleadingly as producing a high; in fact, it induces an intense, dreamlike experience that can be unpleasant for first-time users. Two states have banned Salvia. Legislation to make it a controlled substance has failed twice in Congress.http://tinyurl.com/s5wu5
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Comment #9 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 15:09:57 PT
"was" supposed to be...
I mean.
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Comment #8 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 15:08:47 PT
Carrot and Stick...
I get so dang mad about the lack of true understanding about the carrot and stick amongst our officials today.That story was originally about a little boy and his stubborn donkey. Growing up in South Texas it was a common tale, fable, parable, etc. and there were supposed to be a lesson or moral to it. The little boy had a stubborn donkey and it would not move. It balked. It sat on the ground. It went only were it chose to go. It wouldn't do what he asked and it wouldn't go where he wanted it to go. He got a stick and beat and beat the stubborn donkey to no avail. Finally, looking at the stick, he had another idea. He knew his donkey loved carrots. He tied a carrot dangling from a string to the end of the stick. Mounted on the donkey's back or walking beside him...he extended the stick out in front of the donkey with the juicy carrot dangling on the string. The carrot hung just out of reach of his nose. The donkey followed the carrot all day long until he was at last rewarded with it at the end of the day. (I did this with a shetland pony and hay dangling from a stick...it works.)The so called "leaders", seem only get the beating part...which didn't work...which was the whole point of the story in the first place.Aaaaarrggh.It's not a carrot OR a stick...it's not about beating the donkey or offering him a carrot. It's about using constructive thinking, instead of brutality...and with a far more satisfactory result.I guess they can't think constructively enough to even figure out what the carrot and stick story is actually about.
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Comment #7 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 14:50:59 PT
lombar
Thank you. I didn't post it. I am watching it now.
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Comment #6 posted by lombar on March 20, 2006 at 14:36:12 PT
Maybe this was posted in the previous story...
Have your say. BBC News. Im watching the bbc news and the government guy just does not get it. More carrot, less stick.. they keep saying if we just get a bigger stick, we can keep the level of addiction down. Sounds familiar..
Can the War on Drugs be won? BBC News
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Comment #5 posted by unkat27 on March 20, 2006 at 12:23:45 PT
Dumbed-down Prohibitionists?
"putting drugs on the streets and fuelling organised crime "This, of course, would not be the case if cannabis were simply a legal, regulated substance like alcohol. I suspect that those who buy into and support the prohibitionist line suffer from an intelligence deficiency for not being capable of making this simple connection in their logic circuits.They need to consider taking a LEAP in their thinking.
LEAP: Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
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Comment #4 posted by Celaya on March 20, 2006 at 11:59:13 PT
How Did He End Up There??????
Yes. Observer, that was a great rebuttal. Prohibition is obviously the "problem."What was so strange about this article, was that it made the same case. The "pay the price" conclusion had nothing to do with the logical progression of the points of the article. It seemed like it was tacked on at the end by some party-line censor.Bizarre.
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Comment #3 posted by Hope on March 20, 2006 at 11:17:18 PT
Observer...
I don't think I've told you lately what an astounding asset you are to our side.Thank you.
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Comment #2 posted by FoM on March 20, 2006 at 10:25:17 PT
observer
I wish they understood the prohibition of cannabis is no different then alcohol prohibition. They are identical in my book.
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Comment #1 posted by observer on March 20, 2006 at 09:57:15 PT
''Problem''
Canada's Growing Marijuana ProblemThe "problem" isn't that marijuana exists.The "problem" isn't that mom & pop are growing marijuana.The problem is prohibiton. The problem is those who use force and coercion (guns/jail) to attempt to force other people to obey their drug dictates.  They make propaganda to paper over their naked and raw brutality in trying to force others to not put this or that substance into their own bodies. Prohibitionists are not about to admit they were wrong; they ignore all evidence that disagrees with them, and they make up "evidence" to "prove" that pot is a killer. After drug warriors have abundantly stolen, killed and destroyed for many years, how can they admit they were wrong? That would mean they were wrong to arrest and jail cannabis users, they were wrong to steal their property, and they were wrong to shoot all those people in the back because they ran away, and they might have been using "drugs." Prohibitionists, like Nazis and fascists in general, believe in forcing other people to do what they want. Prohibitionists, with blood on their hands, will go to the grave screaming how right they are to jail/kill/rob cannabis users. We saw the same thing with hard-core Nazis who went to their graves believing the rightness of gassing Jewish people. Drug warriors (prohibitionists) are no different. 
http://drugpolicycentral.com/bot/propaganda
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