cannabisnews.com: Debate Over Pot Cuts Across Political Lines










  Debate Over Pot Cuts Across Political Lines

Posted by CN Staff on March 12, 2006 at 06:47:59 PT
By Kirk Caraway, Appeal Internet Editor 
Source: Nevada Appeal 

Nevada -- There are a number of good debates taking place in the comments section on nevadaappeal.com, with something new every day. People have a lot to say about a whole range of issues, and believe me, they aren't shy about expressing themselves. It may get a little wild on these comment boards, but I think it's one of the best things we ever did. News should be a conversation, not a lecture, and the online comments are a way for everyone to join the discussion.
One debate that has persisted for a number of days has been the battle over legalizing marijuana. It's been testy at times, with a lot of invective hurled back and forth. But what makes it interesting for me is how this issue cuts across the standard partisan lines that define most contemporary issues. There is still a strong liberal-conservative divide, but there is also another dynamic at work. You have the more religious conservatives teamed up with a number of nanny-state liberals who are against legalization. On the pro side, you have a strong liberal contingent joined by the more libertarian conservatives. And those stuck in the middle you might as well flip a coin to figure out where they stand. It makes for an odd fight. You can have prominent conservatives like William F. Buckley Jr, urging legalization, going up against Bill "I didn't inhale" Clinton, who supported continued prohibition. Issues like legalizing marijuana cause upheaval in the ideological strata, and give you a glimpse at the basis for these political views. Many of the online debaters who are against legalization hit upon the moral aspects of the law. Smoking pot is morally wrong, and for the government to legalize it would be condoning immorality. Government should uphold high moral standards, and enforce them vigorously. Throw the pot smokers in jail, they say. If the punishment is harsh enough, eventually people won't smoke it anymore. But there is a problem with this stand that shows why so many people even among conservatives are in favor of legalization. For moral standards to take hold, there has to be clear lines drawn between moral and immoral acts. Alcohol consumption is legal, accepted and even encouraged by our culture, even though it is arguably more harmful than marijuana. Telling people they can use alcohol but not marijuana is like telling children they can have Pepsi but not Sprite. It's a difference without distinction. The mixed message it sends breaks down the moral boundaries, leaving 39 percent of Nevada voters opting for legalization during the last election, and a clear majority favoring legalizing marijuana for medical use.While 39 percent isn't a majority, it spells trouble for keeping the drug illegal. Think of any other criminal law on the books where such a large percentage disagrees with the law. Other than gambling and prostitution, I can't think of any. And look how we handle those issues in Nevada. Setting criminal standards takes a clear consensus of the population for it to work, not just a bare majority. When you have a contentious issue like marijuana, making it illegal just breeds contempt for the justice system in general. I would argue this disrespect for the authority of government outweighs any benefit from keeping the drug illegal. Balancing freedom and morality is a difficult task. Many people say you can't legislate morality, but that is what we often demand from our government. We all want the freedom to pursue what we believe is moral, but then we seek the enforcement of our moral boundaries, otherwise immorality might spread like disease. Freedom is a disease, also, and I feel it is spreading faster than those who oppose it can erect walls to stop it. Will Nevada voters approve the reform of marijuana laws this year? I don't know. But I do think it's just a matter of time. Kirk Caraway is Internet editor of the Nevada Appeal. Complete Title: Debate Over Pot Cuts Across Traditional Political LinesSource: Nevada Appeal (Carson City, NV)Author: Kirk Caraway, Appeal Internet EditorPublished: March 12, 2006Copyright: 2006 Nevada AppealContact: editor nevadaappeal.comWebsite: http://www.nevadaappeal.com/Related Articles & Web Site:Regulate and Control Marijuanahttp://www.regulatemarijuana.org/Marijuana Campaign Started http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread21577.shtmlLegalization Backers Launch Nevada Campaignhttp://cannabisnews.com/news/thread21575.shtml

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Comment #89 posted by afterburner on March 13, 2006 at 23:05:12 PT
Why Do You Think of Green? 
Have a SAFER St. Patrick's Day; Use Marijuana! 
by SAFER Press Release (13 Mar, 2006) NORML and SAFER Team Up to Encourage Americans to Have a SAFER St. Patrick’s Day; Citizens are urged to consider using marijuana instead of alcohol
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4693.html
 Jah blessed man and woman with herb. Ganja heal. Ganja inspire. Ganja teach. Guidance: respect!
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Comment #88 posted by afterburner on March 13, 2006 at 19:57:58 PT
'manufacturing onions'
LOL! That's a good one, Hope
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Comment #87 posted by global_warming on March 13, 2006 at 15:15:11 PT
re:54
you already have enough load on your back..Maybe there is a 'some day, and a somewhere,When this man made hell will forever be vanquished to the nether realms from where this disease has been born.I hope that someday and somewhere we 'all may gather to embrace our 'inheritence, that which has been foretold.
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Comment #86 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 11:54:58 PT
Hope
I am glad that our land connects deep in the woods and we aren't on the same road. The more development we see in our area the better. Most of the people who build around here are from out of the area. Most are from big cities and re-locate. They will use lawyers to solve any problems. One family just sunk a ton of money in land out here so they will take them to court if they have to.
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Comment #85 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 11:42:11 PT
Oh my gosh, FoM.
What horrible neighbors. That is so scary.
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Comment #84 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 11:33:28 PT
Hope
Thanks. The best way for us is to avoid any contact with them. This family owned hundreds of acres in this area and they don't own it now but they act like all the land is still theirs. People are now fighting with them that have just built out here. The two sons raped a girl around the same time as the shooting of our dogs in a town cemetery. They did go to jail for a short time over the rape. They should have asked us and the dogs would have been kenneled or tied. 
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Comment #83 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 11:31:05 PT
Some pretty ugly stuff on this thread, too.
http://apps.nevadaappeal.com/na_polls/story-comments.php?sid=103090072&mode=thread&order=0
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Comment #82 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 11:03:05 PT
Storms
Dang. I dread storms.
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Comment #81 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 11:01:55 PT
FoM
That's awful! I know people don't want dogs harrassing or hurting their stock...but killing them without asking the owners to keep them up is awful. What hillbillies! I hate that for you. Looks like a good fence is your only alternative.Mean people suck!
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Comment #80 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:59:09 PT
Thanks, Whig
for the toe and tow reference. Being from the plains, mostly, it always meant "toe the line" to me. But I've noticed others see it as "tow" which always makes me think of men "towing lines" from barges along the Eerie Canal and such places. 
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Comment #79 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 10:56:23 PT
Hope
The people who own the cows are violent. They came over on our property and shot two big dogs ( about 90 lbs each ) we had years ago on our parents front porch and left them. They tracked them and said they were chasing the cows. My mom was very sick at that time. My mom had Alzheimers so she couldn't identify them so they weren't charged. They are gun toting shooting whatever they want whenever they want. Luckily they live about a half a mile from us even though our properties share a border.PS: A storm is rolling in so I will turn off the computer if it gets bad and be back as soon as I can.
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Comment #78 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:50:36 PT
We need to send some scouts over to 
the Nevada Appeal, I think.http://apps.nevadaappeal.com/na_polls/story-comments.php?sid=102200043&mode=thread&order=0Some ugly prohibs over there.I can't right now...have some chores waiting for me. Maybe tonight.
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Comment #77 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:47:51 PT
I mean
"wouldn't work".
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Comment #76 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:47:16 PT
weiners
Dogs and varmits wouldn't leave those in place for long. So weiners would work. 
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Comment #75 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:46:05 PT
Invading cows.
The dogs don't want to keep them out? Perhaps a small electric fence? A cattle repellant? What could be used as a cattle repellant?Fences, coyotes, and dogs are all that come to mind at the moment. Reckon they would cross a line of all beef weiners?:0)
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Comment #74 posted by whig on March 13, 2006 at 10:43:17 PT
Toe/Tow
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-toe2.htm
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Comment #73 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 10:34:52 PT
Hope
Manufacturing onions too much. Last year we had a terrible drought. Our farming neighbor's cows decided to visit and stomped the whole garden into the ground after eating what they wanted. The owner of the cows will not stop his cows because at one time the cows grazed where our house and other houses are now. We have a fenced in area for our dogs and we will try again and put the garden in the backyard. The cows will just push thru and get in anyway though. They are very determined.
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Comment #72 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:29:18 PT
gardening and hoeing
I'm not looking forward to it this year. I already need to have started manufacturing onions.
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Comment #71 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:28:01 PT
Yes, Whig. So true
and "Tow the line"...to folks accustomed to pulling barges and boats, too. "Toe the line" for those who see that line drawn in the sand.
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Comment #70 posted by whig on March 13, 2006 at 10:25:00 PT
Road to Tow
Well, there's "row to hoe" and "toe the line" and lots of others that get mis-heard and misunderstood.
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Comment #69 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:24:33 PT
Protests
They can spur people to giving some thought and conversation to issues they previously ignored. Protests are a method of bringing us visibility. Most people that are against us would like to consider us invisible or complete non-entities. A protest can remind them we're still here.
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Comment #68 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 10:22:53 PT
Hope
Since Matt made an adjustment let me know if it happens today please. He asked me to let him know if it is fixed.Oh troubleshooting ain't it fun!
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Comment #67 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 10:21:07 PT
Road To Tow
Hope remember how you thought Janice Joplin said Freedom's just another word when there's nothing else to do?I always thought it was road to tow! Duh! LOL!
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Comment #66 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:20:43 PT
that error
I got it last night and yesterday evening a few times. It seems to happen more at night.
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Comment #65 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 10:19:08 PT
Whig
After you settle in Berkeley and meet different people you might come to understand a little more about protests. You must be younger then some of us on CNews. If a person didn't see what went on during Vietnam and how the protests helped it could be very hard to understand their effectiveness.
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Comment #64 posted by Hope on March 13, 2006 at 10:19:05 PT
"everyone's got their own row to hoe"
It's a mighty long row we're hoeing, too. It would be a relief to be able to see the end of it. But, that reminds me of the plowing parable. Don't look back. Keep our eyes on the end of that row, even if we can't quite see it yet. I've got to sharpen my hoe.
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Comment #63 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 09:17:06 PT
Whig
No we sure don't need anymore martyrs. I believe in protests because they were very effective in ending the Vietnam War. Selling seeds publically has always been something I have stayed away from. Some people have made a lot of money selling seeds. Seeds should be free in my opinion. Let's change the laws and then seeds won't be an issue. I believe in putting the horse in front of the cart.
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Comment #62 posted by whig on March 13, 2006 at 09:07:30 PT
FoM
Just remember, though, that we're all doing our own things in our own ways. Toker00 made the point to me that I ought to be more respectful of protests, even though it isn't the approach I personally prefer to use. I don't think I'd want to get into open defiance, either, but I've had a history of doing lots of things in the past that I wouldn't do today. It just seems to me that I can do a lot more good being able to talk to people and using discretion to stay away from unnecessary risk which would make it harder for me to be part of the solution. We don't need more martyrs. But like I said, everyone's got their own row to hoe.
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Comment #61 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 08:58:42 PT
Thanks Whig
I personally finally stopped checking the web sites involved in the seed war issue. I only hope that no one gets hurt over this. 
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Comment #60 posted by whig on March 13, 2006 at 08:47:50 PT
FoM
Not really news, but some commentary on the OG bust:http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v06/n309/a10.html?999
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Comment #59 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 08:38:43 PT
Another Note
I just received an e-mail from Matt and he made an adjustment that might help the bad timing error. If anyone still has this problem please let me know so I can let Matt know. I'm sorry for the problem.
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Comment #58 posted by FoM on March 13, 2006 at 08:16:40 PT
Just a Note
No new news so far today. I can't figure out why it is so slow. I will keep looking.
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Comment #57 posted by whig on March 13, 2006 at 08:02:28 PT
siege
The Devvy Kidd article was pretty weak, actually, and reliance on the US Constitution in a Michigan law case is kind of perverse, when the Michigan constitution itself states right in Article 18, Section 7, "Every person has a right to bear arms for the defense of himself and the state."
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Comment #56 posted by siege on March 13, 2006 at 07:00:34 PT
Second Amendment
Those who would say this is "extremist" or radical" are either ignorant of the history of this republic or too afraid they will be required to perform their constitutional duty in protecting their state and this country as part of their state militia. Cowards and lazy slugs who don't want to give up their leisure time for freedom. They would rather all the guns be in the hands of government and law enforcement to "keep them safe." Such thinking creates slaves. http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd174.htm
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Comment #55 posted by afterburner on March 12, 2006 at 20:58:54 PT
Gary Storck 
"dysfunctional Legislature" Ain't it the truth!
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Comment #54 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 15:34:07 PT
g_w
Take the weight off your back, let us share the load.
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Comment #53 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 15:04:54 PT
my bleeding
can find completionwhen 'we those peoplecan come and 'witnessthe ashesand testaments'we bring to this 'tableThere is a 'promisethat has been proffesed it has been on the fleshand marrowon the backsof those who carry this Light
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Comment #52 posted by charmed quark on March 12, 2006 at 14:53:04 PT
Supreme Court
It seems like they did leave this as an open question. They said several times, in the Oakland Coop. ruling, that there might be a constitutional opening for medical necessity, but that was not addressed by challenging the DEA throught he Commerce Clause. Almost like they were asking them to resubmit an appeal it a different way.
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Comment #51 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 14:48:27 PT
then use 
three letter subjects
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Comment #50 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 14:48:14 PT
gw - what do you want?
How can you stop bleeding?
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Comment #49 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 14:46:52 PT
gw #48
I would call you gw in the subject headings, but CNews doesn't like two-letter subjects.
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Comment #48 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 14:40:52 PT
please call me gw
that sign says,so i tucked my hair under my hat,as i bowed, and watchedhow they placed those 'nailsinto his 'flesh
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Comment #47 posted by charmed quark on March 12, 2006 at 14:38:55 PT
Thanks Whig
BTW, great photos of the two campuses. I made a panorama from ont top of the hill in Berkely on a very clear day - I had to stitch together 6 photos - I'll see it I can upload it somewhere. While I was taking it I got to experience a small temblor! Yale is a beautiful campus, but surrounding New Haven is not so great. Berkely is stuck in the middle of very interesting culture, people and beautiful scenery.
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Comment #46 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 14:34:19 PT
charmed quark
I can't remember but I don't think they ever went that far.
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Comment #45 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 14:33:59 PT
global_warming
No more CruciFixationShow Jackie O' your Rifle Pin?No. Celebrate Life. Not Death.
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Comment #44 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 14:31:12 PT
those pics
remind me,how most of 'usthat 'we those people,can swallow 'all this injusticeJesus may be some fiction,in many minds'I Mark this time2006 yearsin the LightHow is your 'HandIs it filled with anger?Can your hand bring that carpenter off that cross?
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Comment #43 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 14:30:37 PT
charmed quark
In US v. Oakland Cannabis Buyers' Cooperative, the court ruled that a medical necessity defense could not be invoked by distributors.
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Comment #42 posted by charmed quark on March 12, 2006 at 14:24:12 PT
Court Case
Wasn't there a statement in the earlier Supreme Court ruling that since Congress has declared cannabis a Schedule 1 drug this means, by definition, that it has no medical use and therefore one can't claim medical neccessity? Or am I confusing it with a different ruling?
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Comment #41 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 14:23:30 PT
 whig 
Great pictures. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. The architecture of Yale is magnificent. Yale is an old school and Berkeley can't be all that old. Freedom started up in the north east and the voice of real freedom lives in Berkeley. Yale is like the mind of freedom and Berkeley is like the heart of freedom. That's just my opinion since I never went to college.
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Comment #40 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 14:10:12 PT
Some pics
Yale and Berkeley... Hopefully this works.
Click here
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Comment #39 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 14:00:09 PT
lombar 
Words how they can mean different things. Candy coated words can cause such harm. Maybe if we keep speaking the truth they will soon understand that somethings just aren't as they appear. 
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Comment #38 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 13:57:52 PT
lombar
And if we kill, it is murder. If the state kills, it is execution, or war, or collateral damage.
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Comment #37 posted by lombar on March 12, 2006 at 13:55:59 PT
FoM
"Forfeiture is just a fancy word for stealing."It seems that newspapers do not like it when I use that as a direct assertion. Like "Just because cannabis is psychoactive is no reason to justify the state stealing from its citizens" and such. Those letters never seem to make it to print...I totally frame my comments around that very belief.IF we steal its crime, if the government steals, its called justice. If you realize there is two sets of rules, the cognitive dissonance fades. I am sure that the wanna-be Gods of this earth think they transcend the rules that bind us ordinary mortals by divine right at birth...
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Comment #36 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 13:46:45 PT
who 'will
be there when you take your last breath'would you like President Bush,maybe Hillary Clinton, to speak for you,
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Comment #35 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 13:29:04 PT
and when you are sick
who will help you?
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Comment #34 posted by ekim on March 12, 2006 at 13:23:35 PT
 moral and immoral -- just wait till you are sick
US WI: PUB LTE: Medical Pot Bill Dies, and With It Chance to Ease People's PainURL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v06/n305/a02.html
Newshawk: Is My Medicine Legal YET? www.immly.org
 Votes: 1
Pubdate: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 
Source: Capital Times, The (WI) 
Copyright: 2006 The Capital Times 
Contact: tctvoice madison.com 
Website: http://www.madison.com/tct/ 
Details: http://www.mapinc.org/media/73 
Note: Usually does not publish letters from outside the state. 
Author: Gary Storck 
MEDICAL POT BILL DIES, AND WITH IT CHANCE TO EASE PEOPLE'S PAIN Dear Editor: Wisconsin Assembly Bill 740 regarding the medical use of marijuana - born Oct. 11, 2005; died March 9, 2006. On Thursday, AB 740, relating to the medical use of marijuana, died in committee from legislative neglect after a short life of only 150 days. AB 740 was preceded in death by the 2003-04 session's AB 892, the 2001-02 session's AB 715 and the 1997-98 session's AB 560. In those 150 days, an estimated 10,825 Wisconsinites were diagnosed with cancer, and 4,496 families lost a loved one to the disease. Others faced multiple sclerosis, AIDS, glaucoma, chronic pain and other serious illness. But rather than addressing this urgent need of allowing the use of medical marijuana for these patients, which most people support, our dysfunctional Legislature instead focused on issues that divide us. And while AB 740 was a bipartisan bill sponsored by a Republican, Rep. Gregg Underheim, its death was also a bipartisan effort. At a November public hearing, some Republicans scorned the bill and were hostile to supporters. Other members, like Rep. Tom Nelson, D-Kaukauna, helped kill it by omission, by refusing to take a position and scuttling an expected vote by the committee. It seemed as if only the committees' two physicians, Democratic Reps. Chuck Benedict and Sheldon Wassermann, truly got it, but their colleagues apparently never asked their opinion. While a vote in committee was never assured, patients who traveled long distances in pain to publicly share private, highly personal information certainly expected one. However, that decision was left up to an out-of-state lobby group. According to a statement from Rep. Underheim's office, the group felt a loss in committee here might negatively affect pending legislation they supported in Minnesota and Illinois. The Minnesota bill lost in committee last Thursday. The fate of the Illinois bill is still pending as I write. Underheim was certainly free to make whatever decision he felt was proper. However, in the end, patients were not protected, incumbents unwilling to go on record in an election year were protected, and politics again trumped both compassion and science. To Wisconsin patients, it feels like one step forward and three steps back. Gary Storck Madison 
http:// www.immly.org
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Comment #33 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 13:14:40 PT
Public Radio
World Link TV is doing a show on a public radio station that was taken off the air and ultimately put back on because the listeners raised up and collected money and got it back on the air. They believe that music should say something about something. I agree.The Radio Station is: http://www.ckua.org/Bruce Cockburn was one artist that was interviewed and also Jim Cuddy and many more.http://www.bluerodeo.com/br/jcb.htmlhttp://www.brucecockburn.com/self_titled.html
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Comment #32 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 13:00:19 PT
have to remember
to switch that 'tv on,need to be reminded,how i can be a better person,brush my teethe, dress for success,before you know it,i can become president of these united states,it don't matter about all those people in prisons,i have me a shiny new car,as long as i am a law abiding citizen,i can drive my shiny new car,what? global warming,that is not for 'me to decide,I just want that prize that is behind curtain number one,
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Comment #31 posted by Hope on March 12, 2006 at 12:53:50 PT
It's sickening.
It is slavery. It is stealing It is rascism. It is greed. It is cruelty. It's easy to see it's wrong once you shake off the effects of the prohibitionist's hypnotic, raging propaganda.I can't understand how it's gone on as long as it has. It's greed and sadistic satisfaction at what they are doing is all I can see.It would be just for their cruelty and idiocy to come back on them. It took a long time to catch up with Duke Cunningham. Maybe what they are doing to people in the name of their prohibition will catch up with them, soon. They ARE criminals who want to hurt people like they do for using a gift from God. It is truly criminal to do what they have to Jerry and so many others. It would only be right that they have to pay for their "war crimes" right here on earth.
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Comment #30 posted by global_warming on March 12, 2006 at 12:48:01 PT
where are 'we?
even in a cage, that 'twinkle can catch the side of your eye.
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Comment #29 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 12:25:26 PT
Truth Truth Truth
Oh how I love the word truth. On World Link TV they talked a lot about truth. We need the truth. On the one video they showed about dissent they showed the serious injuries from using wooden bullets. They showed the cage for protesters to go into during the RNC. They showed people being arrested for a sign. The cage reminded many of seeing the Jews in cages. We must change our direction. We really must.http://aclu.tv/videos
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Comment #28 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 12:10:24 PT
Hope
Even though the driving forces of the drug war are as you say, we have to look at the public support for the drug war and how to remove this. I don't think most people are motivated by hatred and greed, they are misled, confused, misdirected.Just like almost any war, really.
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Comment #27 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 12:04:43 PT
Hatred and Greed
How can we counter hatred and greed? Do we attack those that believe that way or show them that they are not walking in the way of love and mercy? Love and Mercy are two very necessary emotions if we want our society to survive.
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Comment #26 posted by Hope on March 12, 2006 at 11:51:38 PT
FoM....comment 11
"Why does our government want to alienate people who don't think like they want? What is freedom? How can we say we are a free country with so many in jail for non violent actions? Why are personal choices against the law?"Dang! Why don't you ask some hard questions? This drug war is about hatred and greed...that's all it is. I'm convinced.
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Comment #25 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 11:37:23 PT
Immoral Laws
I believe what goes around comes around. When bad laws are created to serve the interest of some people in time that bad law will turn around and cause them more grief then they ever thought could possibly happen.Some people call it Karma. I believe that what is right in the end will win.
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Comment #24 posted by kaptinemo on March 12, 2006 at 11:24:19 PT:
Guys, yer stealing my thunder
And Whig, thanks for reminding me about the 13th Amendment. The ugly truth is, slavery does indeed exist. Those incarcerated in prison are often paid literally a slave's wages for the same work done outside prison wall for much more. And I recall one TV news instance in which an orange-jumpsuited prisoner was shackled to the leg of the desk where he was working as a call-center supporter.Needless to say, he was Black...
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Comment #23 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 11:02:25 PT
whig 
Thanks! 
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Comment #22 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 10:54:57 PT
FoM - Thirteenth Amendment
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."Exactly.
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Comment #21 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 10:49:10 PT

kaptinemo
Many years ago when they were increasing the drug penalties for Crack I had this strange thought. I was not in the slightest bit involved in any drugs but I remember thinking that slavery is a hard thing to give up so by making the laws hard they can continue slavery by putting blacks in jail and then they work cheap once again. It keeps the blacks under the thumb of the white ruling class. 
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Comment #20 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 10:37:20 PT

kaptinemo
"So...when some prohib informs you that the drug laws must remain as they are out of deferrence to morality, you might consider asking them if they support racial bigotry as being moral...for that's EXACTLY what they are doing."I think the antis would, today, deny any racism. Even though we know it's a large part of what motivates them, if we can't get them to admit this kind of discrimination, it's mostly useful in this context to point out the disparate impact of the drug war on blacks.I really think the gay issue is one which resonates more today, because the culture war is still very much alive on this. It is politically incorrect for anyone to admit an anti-black bias, but in conservative circles I think it's still acceptable to be against gay rights.Like I said, though, I did some thinking in terms of our upcoming move about where and how I could be more effective, and in the Bay area this one is a sure winner, I think. It might not play as well in Peoria.
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Comment #19 posted by kaptinemo on March 12, 2006 at 10:27:16 PT:

Morality...as defined by whom?
If one researches the earliest writings of DrugWarriors, you find an almost frantic concern about such matters as 'miscegenation'. It was considered immoral for a Black person and White person to have a child. Period. Such was supposed to lead to the destruction of the White race, and must not be permitted, lest the racial purity of the supposedly superior White race is diminished. Illicit drugs were thought to especially tempt White women to seek sexual congress with Black men.I am not making this stuff up; go here http://www.drugwar.com/blackfiends.shtm and here http://www.drugwar.com/whitehope.shtm and read the words of the first DrugWarriors for yourself. Anslinger's testimony is another source of this insanity.The sad truth is, this racial bigotry is at the core of the DrugWar, but has largely been forgotten in the mists of time as minorities within society began to achieve a level of equality with those who once openly oppressed them. In many nations around the world that have been former belligerants in war, there are millions of land mines left behind from conflicts long over, and these still maim and kill the unlucky ones who literally stumble upon them.The DrugWar is like that for minorities; the racist rationale for the 'war' has been long forgotten, but the 'land mines' of the former conflict are still around, still being stepped on, still destroying people's lives.So...when some prohib informs you that the drug laws must remain as they are out of deferrence to morality, you might consider asking them if they support racial bigotry as being moral...for that's EXACTLY what they are doing. EXACTLY. It makes no difference how long ago it began; the 'why' is almost always more important than the 'how'. The laws were based upon that bigotry, and as the old legal phrase goes, the present day War on (Some) Drugs is the 'fruit of the poison tree'. 'Fruit' that has poisoned society to this day... 
 
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Comment #18 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 10:15:39 PT

whig 
Yes they would. Hate of different values leads to all kinds of bad things.
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Comment #17 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 09:58:58 PT

FoM
Wouldn't they kill all the drug users too?
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Comment #16 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 09:53:47 PT

whig 
Maybe we should make those who are against the Gay lifesyle come up with a solution to the problem. Either we accept that people are different or we can kill them all and be done with it. It's either accept what we don't believe is right for us as an individual or we kill them off because that would be the only way to control it. Sounds terrible doesn't it?PS: I love talking points.

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Comment #15 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 09:48:46 PT

Talking point?
I know, I know, I hate the idea of talking points in general, but it's nice to have an argument in reserve for special circumstances. Suppose you are involved in or witnessing a debate or a conversation with an anti, and you have the opportunity to ask a question. It may seem like a change of subject, but I think it would be extremely revealing to ask their opinion of gay rights. I bet 99% or more of the antis would also prohibit homosexuality if they could. They might not want to admit that publicly, but if cornered on the question, I don't think most antis believe it is a biological difference, and even if they did, they would preach abstinence if they could. Let's put the puritans on the spot, and build every alliance we can.
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Comment #14 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 09:34:46 PT

Alternative Lifestyle 
Yes whig I understand what you are saying.
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Comment #13 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 09:32:23 PT

They Say that Marijuana Use Isn't Victimless
That depends on how you look at it. If a person dies from climbing a mountain and falling they might leave a wife and children. They are victims in a sense ( hurt by husband's actions ) and it is sad but it is allowed. Why can't the use of marijuana be allowed?
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Comment #12 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 09:30:55 PT

Morality
There is no morality without the freedom to choose. If a person desires to do that which another considers immoral, prevention does not change the desire. But I don't think this is at the root of human-made "laws" against "immoral" behavior. Rather, I think it is the fear of temptation itself which drives the antis.Having been recently to the Bay area and planning a move there, I cannot help but acknowledge the parallel issue of gay rights which has had such an impact particularly in that part of the country. I mentioned this the other day in passing, but I think maybe we should talk more about it. We too are advocating an alternative lifestyle choice for consenting adults.The opposition to gay rights has been (I think, correctly) portrayed as driven by homophobia. It is not fear of gays, it is fear of homosexuality itself -- "religious" and political leaders who fear their own attraction to members of their same sex. Note how the antis are always concerning themselves with the idea that if cannabis were legal, more people would use it -- maybe they are really saying they fear it would be too much of a temptation for themselves. Look at Bill Bennett and his gambling problems, Jim Bakker's sexual indiscretions, etc. Those preaching a straightjacketed lifestyle are presumably filled with lusts and desires they try to deny themselves, "oh Lord, please do not tempt me."It was not so very long ago that homosexuality was classified as a mental illness, that sodomy was a crime. I think the antis would very much like to reinstate that state of affairs. Reaching out in this way may make some even in our own community uncomfortable, but I think it is a discussion worth having.
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Comment #11 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 09:16:49 PT

Hope
Why does our government want to alienate people who don't think like they want? What is freedom? How can we say we are a free country with so many in jail for non violent actions? Why are personal choices against the law?
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Comment #10 posted by Hope on March 12, 2006 at 09:08:32 PT

Comment 8
Amen! Amen to that entire post.
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Comment #9 posted by whig on March 12, 2006 at 09:07:49 PT

Briefs
The Answer brief by the government seems to be up, but the Opening and Reply by Raich seem to be missing at the moment.
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Comment #8 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 09:06:13 PT

Something Very Immoral To Me
Putting someone like Jerry in a Federal prison at the age of 59 over a plant that has been on the earth since the beginning of time is immoral to me. Taking people's property because of marijuana is immoral to me. Forfeiture is just a fancy word for stealing.
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Comment #7 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 08:53:52 PT

Morality
That word has been thrown around so much it makes my head spin. What is not immoral to me might be immoral to someone else. It depends on what a person has experienced and what a person believes. Hurting another person is immoral to me. If I want to climb a dangerous mountain to see what might be at the top even though it is dangerous is fine with me. The person might fall and die but that should be an individuals right. I rode and jumped horses. It is a dangerous sport but legal. Christopher Reeve lost his life from a fall. I have been thrown over fences too but didn't get seriously hurt. We need to allow people to experience life and stop putting people in boxes and then call it immoral.
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Comment #6 posted by Max Flowers on March 12, 2006 at 08:53:34 PT

Freedom a disease?
Freedom is a disease,Well if freedom is a disease, let's hope it becomes a massive pandemic, because right now it is heavily quarantined, controlled and contained.
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Comment #5 posted by Hope on March 12, 2006 at 08:26:29 PT

This article....
Immoral? Cannabis use is no more "immoral" than breathing or drinking orange pekoe.
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Comment #4 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 08:23:58 PT

Here's Another Article
http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread21335.shtml
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Comment #3 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 08:22:01 PT

Hope
Does this article help?http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread21334.shtml
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Comment #2 posted by Hope on March 12, 2006 at 08:19:04 PT

Raich v. Gonzales
What's this about? I didn't find anything over at Angel's site that explained it. I do remember hearing they were going to fight from another angle. But I'm completely ignorant of what this actually means. Anybody able to explain it to me?
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Comment #1 posted by FoM on March 12, 2006 at 07:49:47 PT

DPFCA: Raich v. Gonzales Hearing in Ninth Circuit
DPFCA: Raich v. Gonzales Hearing in Ninth Circuit - Mar 27th, Pasadena Hello Everyone,On January 13, 2006, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals set a hearing date for Raich v. Gonzales for Monday, March 27, 2006, at 1:30 in hearing room Three, at the Richard H. Chambers U.S. Court of Appeal building, 125 South Grand Avenue, Pasadena, California. http://angeljustice.org/downloads/RemandOrderOralArgumentScheduled011306.pdfThe justices are for some reason calling up this case very fast. They did something they do not normal do, they set a hearing date before the briefing was completed. We got notice from the court in January, and our briefs were not completed until March 6, 2006. Most case they hear only get 10 to 20 minutes for each side. Our case gets 30 minutes for each side. We are the only case being heard on March 27. So it appears the justice are really wanting to hear this case in an emergency fashion. Hopefully, we will have another good decision. If we were to take a guess on when the decision will come out, I would guess around June or July 2006, remember this is only a guess. I feel good about this phase of the case and we made good sound arguments.If you are in the Pasadena area and you want to attend the hearing I will see you there. If you have any questions please send an e-mail to angel angeljustice.org.All the briefs from Raich v. Gonzales on Remand from the US Supreme Court are now available for you to read. http://angeljustice.org/article.php?list=type&type=11 These briefs are fun to read. In the governments supplemental brief you will find interesting, they mischaracterize, wrongly state and demand the gravity of the facts in this case and other cases they site trying to use against the Appellants, in so many ways it is hard to know were to begin. They left the door open and we step right through in our reply brief.Compassion and Justice, Angel Raich angel angeljustice.orghttp://www.angeljustice.org-- ---- California NORML (415) 563-5858 // canorml igc.org 2215-R Market St. #278, San Francisco CA 94114
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